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The Arrogance of 'Non-duality' ?
Non-Duality is the most arrogant teaching and communication of truth ever! Even the salvation through the 'only begotten son' of Christianity cannot compete with it.
I suggest the study of the relationship of Vivekananda (a staunch non-dualist)to Sri Ramakrishna (proposing integrality) as a way to become more intelligent about 'oneness' and how to understand and communicate it...
The West is completely incapable of understanding non-duality and it does not need to, because we are on a different path. Not the path of MAYA, but the path of COSMOS.
sat-chit-ananda
Amendment to previous response :
Truth cannot be known, thought, taught or communicated. Cosmos means harmony not as an act but harmony of optical and auditory illusions.
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Harmony or order of illusions.... from where? how?
illusions are a reflection of light
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It is not only light, but also intelligence that is reflected as illusion (from the point of view of Absolute Understanding). They are reflected in various ways, starting with the 5 elements, via all the life organisms and their integral development sight, hearing, etc. These ways are harmonious in nature and betray integral purposing in various and definite ways that can be known and understood, but transcends the mind in the end.
Let the mind be trained and have the discipline and develop its full capacities up to that point. This is the Integral Mind. The light and the reflections are also integral to each other. They are not separate. We only separate them for the sake of understanding. Unity in Diversity.
Light is synonymous with intelligence. Light is intelligence. Five elements is the known and therefore in the mind, five elements do not transcend the mind, neti-neti. Life evolves and sophisticates the mind every moment. An individual cannot train the mind for he is illusory and does not exist as a reality. Mind is sound integrated and disintegrated in the same moment. Reflections are 'of' light and if integral means 'of' light it is correct. 'We' do not separate for there is no 'we' who could separate as an act. Mind is sophisticated by life wherein separation and inseparation are in the same moment but appear separate. Life makes them to appear separate to project diversity which is illusory.
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Where there is intelligence, there is purpose. If "life makes them to appear separate to project diversity which is illusory", we have an intention and purpose of "life"? What is the difference between "I make" and "life makes" then?
The idea "I make..." is identification. The idea "life makes..." is...? Are we talking about witnessing life and light - or, identity?
Where there is intellect there is purpose. Intellect is a reflection of intelligence. Life does not make anything for life is a singular spontaneous, uncontrollable and unpredictable movement of light and sound that project optical illusions and auditory illusions. 'I' does not make either for 'I' the ego is false meaning illusory. The idea 'I make' is identification which is false as the 'I' the ego is false. Life does not make anything and therefore the question is invalid. If life makes anything then it would be real and life cannot be manifested as time would be real then.
Identification happens to the 'I' and the witnesser does not identify for nothing could be identified in a singualr movement, which has no begining and ending.
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I love the term 'singular movement'. Thank you for shedding light on the illusionary nature of the relative mind by 'thinking'. Thinking happens before the I-do can claim it. It is 'Schoepfung' creating with light and sound, speech - mastery is required. A disciplined mind comes in handy and should be required BEFORE enlightenment, just as a way to hold us human beings to the developmental standard set out for us in cosmic harmony.
I shudder at the "thought" that someone will side step thinking taking enlightenment as an excuse for that. Thinking is a hard thing to do and it is a little painful, because it takes us out of the comfort-zone of the idle-mind that just has thoughts and claims them as "I-me-mine".
Once enlightened, thinking comes easy though
Intelligence is innate purpose that is cosmos. Intellect proposes and projects purposes consciously as human convention dictates. Intellect is not thinking. Thinking is Thanking. Intellect is calculation and computation, cause and effect. Intelligence is innately cause and innate purpose. What is beyond the ratiocination of the intellect requires a new language and enlightened interpretation.
I like Ramana Maharshi's 'I-I', because there is no predication (of a subject), singular movement...
The illusory nature of the mind too happens and not IS NOT brought about by thinking. Mastery of speech indicates a sophistiated mind. Sophistication of the mind happens and man does not bring it about. Once the mind is understood to be illusory (which happens too, when it is meant too) enlightenment reveals itself. Any requirement is a condition and a condition is a function of the illlusory mind. No one can side step thinking for man is not the doer. Man cannot DO thinking, thinking happens to man. If man can DO thinking then he can stop it too and he cannot stop thinking. Enlightened thinking is still thinking and therefore would be illusory. Human convention dictates is illusory for man is not the doer, never has been and never will be. Intellect projects thinking. Thanking is thinking and illusory. Life or intelligence is causeless and effectless. Mind is calculative and computing and life has evolved it to be so. There is nothing called enlightened interpretation for enlightenment is a timeless and thoughtless state. Interpretation happens in the mind and is illusory. It is the ego which likes and dislikes.
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Intelligence innately can never be without purpose. Without purpose it would be sentiency.
Words...and how we use them, otherwise silence. No exceptions! Not even for Non-duality.
Interpretation of words...and how we understand them, otherwise no meaning. No exceptions! Not even for Non-duality.
Construction...and how we purpose it, otherwise no form. No exceptions! Not even for Non-duality.
De-construction...and how IT e-merges (bi-directional), otherwise no life. Not even for Non-duality.
Thinking is alive, when understood. When not - o.k. it is an illusion, of course....
Man does not use words for man is not the speaker. Words happen to man as an auditory illusion of sound.
The mind knows the interpretation of words but is yet to understand them as illusory.
Man does not construct or propose, both happen to man as an auditory illusion of sound.
De-construction and it emergence too happen to man and man does not make them happen. It happens as an optical and auditory illusion of light and sound.
Thinking is dead and not alive for thinking happens in the past as an auditory illusion of sound. If understanding happens that thinking happens in the past thinking is realised as illusory.
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Something is happening! Thinking happens before sound and the auditory illusion of it. Thinking directs sound and light (in a different way). It creates and un-creates with light and sound.
Stated in advance that Dr Shankar has been a great discovery to me and that I really enjoy the interviews with him (Evolution of Mind hasn`t reach me yet but i`m seeeing forward to get it!), I wonder about thoughts and the thinking mind.
Science hasn`t understood yet the nature of thinking and consciousness. Intensive researches are going on but we still haven`t got a clue of how a thought happens.
Somewhere I read that the activity of the mind and consciousness must be quantum related and non-computational whereas I read on Dizzedin 04/15-20.45 that mind is calculative and computing.
How can we say anything about mind at all? Maybe thinking goes at the speed of light?
Thinking is not 'processing thoughts', or 'having thoughts'. Thinking creates out of light, silence and emptiness.
"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he". That is our account-ability. Empirical Science looks at thinking from the outside with measurements, etc. The thinking scientists have again and again revolutionized science from the point of light. Empirical evidence can not get to thinking. The thinking scientist can.
The ego attaching itself to thoughts can not get to thinking. Thinking is original and creative in nature. It creates out of light, Nada and Bindu and uses color, sound, form, and structure. Since thinking can create, it also can un-create unto light and life.
[Thinking is the specific account-ability of humanity in terms of harmony-order or cosmos. That is the Wisdom of Ancient Greece, starting with Pythagoras 600 B.C. via Parmenides, Heraclitus to Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. All of them held high the torch of thinking as an apporach to light or the ultimate mystery, and as an approach to nature as a product of the sensory apparatus and experience.]
Dr. Shankar is completely right with his penetrating assessment, and he conveys light - exactly, systematically and authentically, which is the Indian tradition. Not that he is doing anything, of course, speech happens, thinking happens.. I am very grateful for the presence and occasion of this life FORM (rupa), i.e. illusion, called "Dr.Shankar"
Thinking is sound and not light as light but a reflection of light.
Thinking creates out of light, and therefore thinking can un-create. Humanity is account-able.
Thinking is an auditory illusion of sound for thinking happens in the mind and mind is sound. Thinking can neither create nor uncreate for thinking too happens as does creation. Uncreate is destruction. Creation and destruction happen in the same moment which transforms as sophistication.
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Thinking happens before the mind. The mind is no condition for thinking. Thinking creates with sound out of light. It is not subject to sound or form.
Un-creation is not destruction, because it is thinking.
With thinking creation and destruction happen in the same moment which opens both ways - out of the light and into the light, the nexus, the possibility of integration(and duality). Going forth and returning - singular movement, always and everywhere, in everything. Nothing can be illusion without non-duality. It is within the one. The one contains illusion - and therefore ALL is real. Life?
Thank you for your beautiful and patient illumination.
Thinking happens in the past, if thinking could uncreate then man would have been able to change his past and there would be no need for the future to exist.
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Thinking does not need to change the past. It is the mind that takes the past for granted and tries to change it, and hopes for a better future that it can control.
Thinking creates the past with form, sound and color - out of light. Future and past are the same integral horizon of creation for thinking.
Claiming the past or the future separates the past from the future, and both are accepted as conditions. Now we are subject to form, color and sound. Now we want to change or control them. This is not thinking. This is tinkering in duality.
Wisdom-point says" Thinking creates and uncreates' so it can uncreate (change) the past, for thinking happens in the mind and nowhere else. Thinking is sound and form is an optical illusion of light and not sound, therefore thinking cannot ever create, let alone form etc. Thinking is duality and nothing else.
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Thinking is only mind if we change the definition of mind to include light, because thinking creates out of light. If 'mind' is defined to be light and non-duality, thinking happens within the mind. If the 'mind' is defined as "sound and form as an optical illusion", then thinking is not mind.
Form or shape is only an optical illusion within mind, but innate geometry in light and intelligence.
'We' meaning man cannot change any definition for the ego is not the doer. Thinking is an auditory illusion of sound and not light. Mind is nondual but appears to be dual. Non-duality and duality is in the same moment. Thoughts arranged to logic and reasoning is thinking, and thoughts are in the mind and no where else. Form and shape happened to the mind initilally as images without sound, later these images (light) sophisticated as sounds, then to words and meanings in illusory time. Light is intelligence and sound is intellect.
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Absolutely.
Integration:
Thinking creates out of light, thought forms (sound) - the ego can only avail itself of thought, not of thinking. As soon as the ego tries to re-present or claim thinking, thinking stops. What is left is reasoning, comparison, computation, anything that constructs a future out of a past by ratiokinetics. This is not thinking.
The ego eclipses thinking in illusion. The thinker is not the ego. It is the nexus of thinking. Account-ability is not the ego. How can the ego be account-able if it can not think?
The ego needs the ten commandments and the rituals of the Vedas. It needs a rationalized justice system and Sigmund Freud to boot.
Pure Light reflects consciousness. Consciousness is reflected light which appears as sound. Evolution and sophistication too is an illusory manifestation of light and sound ( Bindu and Naada). Thinking is sophistication of sound (Naada) over evolutionary illusory time.
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Thinking is already before "evolution". Evolution is a relative process in time that builds what has already been thought.
Just like building a house. The plan is already thought and drawn, when building starts in time according to plan. The 'Architect' (intelligence) conceived of the plan in one moment and then fiddles with it according to the minds expertise and ratiocinetics.
Thinking happens out of Bindu, as an immediate creation, then the plan can be drawn (reflection) and the process in time (sound) begins. The house 'evolution' is already complete in thinking, but it takes time to evolve to this level of sophistication in time.
At any time thinking can interfere with the process in time and un-think it. The plan can be re-drawn at any time. The building can be torn down at any time.
Wo is the thinker, who is the builder? How are they the same and non-existent.
That thinking gets caught up with the building in time (evolution) is identification and not sophistication). It is not thinking at this point of identification with time and process. Man struggles and in this struggle thinking is scrambled into control.
There is of course a fundamental difference in creating a cosmic evolution of living organisms, and creating science, engineering, technology, religion, metaphysics etc. Human creation is not creation of a universe, fortunately so far.
May enlightenment be in illusion. May thinking facilitate by creating and un-creating as is necessary.
Thinking is not BEFORE evolution but a potential in evolution which expressed within the mind as an auditory illuion of sound with the advent of man as an optical illusion. If thinking were before evolution it would mean man was before evolution and in a world of his own apart from the man in the world as a result of evolution. This would entail two worlds one with man with thinking without evolution and one with man with thinking in evolution. There is only one world and not two and this is the meaning of oneness for there is only one world and not two.
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dizzedin will resume responding on May 17
Of course thinking is before evolution as a potential. And this potential is actualized by evolution in accordance with the innate purpose.
Every moment the potential of thinking is actualizing itself out of light by creating with form, color, and sound via the evolved instrument called man. That is exactly the point.
If we want to include that in our understanding of mind, then mind can create. If not, we have to relegate "mind" to a foot soldier or instrument of thinking, that needs to be disciplined and obedient or an effective instrument.
And we did not even start to talk about 'will' and 'intention' without ego.
Truth cannot be known thought or communicated. Cosmos means harmony not as an act but harmony of optical and auditory illusions.
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