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The Confused Definition of NOW.


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RichardMiller's picture
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What really distinguishes the non-duality crowd is that they are willing to deny what is absolutely most obvious to all 8 billion of the outsiders to this group.  From their detached point of view they rely on logical constructs instead of empirical constructs. Here I won't go into how that might have occurred. "No doing, no doer, no time, no process, all appearances are projected mind”)  Although I am not so sure that all of this is non-duality. Whether they deny process, or just deny “my process”, and it is true that all appearances do have A COMPONENT of projected mind. That’s the interpretation fraction. Even if that fraction is very big, who can know that is all there is? But non-duality is not saying there is nothing “out there”. It is only saying that it may be unapproachable in any pure state?  This part gets confused.

 

Let’s investigate what ground of beliefs could bring someone to declare something that flies in the face of their own perceptions of every moment of life.

 

First is the notion of NOW.  Now is a useful term when contrasted to the abuses of my childhood (the past) and my fear of next year’s tax returns, (the future).  But I am sure that NOW is not very useful when speaking of one second gone by, or the next second approaching (or even micro-second).

 

We establish a belief based in logic that time is like a freight train of infinitely short box cars (called moments), that are traveling from our projected imagination (the future) and passing our perception in the now for an instant, and then voyaging to our memory (into the past).  What is the evidence of these staccato moments that make up (or deconstruct) our time on earth?  It is a product of differential equations in mathematics, isn’t it?  The abstract of calculus has been adopted as life viewpoint.

 

When you dispassionately look at the flow of NOW, what can be said?

  1. NOW never stops, so it is infinitely long in duration.
  2. That longness is not long (past to future), but infinitely continuous in the now.
  3. Moments are nonexistent in this seeing, and we might strain to understand how this continuity could replace them.
  4. NOW is inexorably tied to life, since without life there is no perception.
  5. Life is always tied to matter, as far as we know.  If it isn’t, we might know when we get there.
  6. Matter is always tied to motion, so life is continually in motion.
  7. Motion is time, so time exists in life, in all perception and it's always a quality of the NOW.

 

Maybe this motion speaks to those who talk vibration, or who like to label life as light.  But that is also a confusion of the macro with the micro.  Saying I am light is like saying computer chips are silicon, so a computer can have only the qualities of the beach. (My pile of sand is an “Apple”.)

 

Could there conceivably be a zone of no time?  It would be a zone of no motion, no perception, and no life.  It wouldn’t be in the cosmos that we know, since as far as we can perceive, in every direction, distant galaxies immerse the universe in their light (motion).  Nowhere can we find the absence of motion, and this is not a projection. 

 

It is a projection to say that when mind stops, the universe stops. The mind that supposedly could have the capacity to stop is a projection also.

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Mind is after the now in

Mind is after the now in life. Life is before the now of the mind. Mind is a delay in the now in life. Life is ahead of the now of the mind. In the mind there is before and after, ahead and delay. In life there is no before or after, no ahead or delay. Mind stagnates. Life moves on.

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Richard

You say: ''...Could there conceivably be a zone of no time? It would be a zone of no motion, no perception, and no life...''

I say: Yes...but only as concept...(conceived)

The zone you speak of exists as the backdrop to all time, motion,perception, life. Without which nothing would exist and nothing is inconceivable.

Concepts such as 'time' 'motion' 'perception' 'life' could not exist without the screen (backdrop) on which they are witnessed...(conceived)

From belief to clarity.

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Further clarification

With regard to mind is delayed from the speed of life, my processor is slow enough that I have not found it a hindrance.

With regard to the conceived concept of blankness behind time and motion, has this concept been useful for you? You say that certain things (or everything) could not exist without a screen. Why do you say that? What is your knowing about that? Is that what I call in my original post a "logical construct" instead of an empirical construct?

Maybe logical constructs are useful somewhere, but since they have absolutely no tether to what is here, they may also take you far into imagination. At least I think it wise to counter balance logical constructs againts some empirical constructs, (sort of checks and balances) that are always tethered to what appears.

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Richard

''...You say that certain things (or everything) could not exist without a screen. Why do you say that? What is your knowing about that?...''

____

I say it because I know it, but I only pretend to know it, or put another way ..I think I know it, it is my experience, albeit an idea in my imagination.

Allow me to explain what I mean.

What is seen (things) is what's looking. The actual looking cannot be seen ..only the contents of looking.That there appears to be gaps between what is seen is illusion, there is no gap between any thing, just as there is no separation between an object seen and that which is seeing the object, just as there in no inbetween now and now.

We call the seen (objective world) and the seer (subjective world)

Any thing seen is a concept (known) but does not exist literally because it's source cannot be seen or known.

Therefore if the looking is unavailable what does that say about its contents? this is proof that all solid objects are illusory images of a dreamer which is also illusory.

No one knows what life is, even if it exists at all, how can we define what is life? if nothing is born.

Does a machine know it's creator?

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Richard

''...With regard to the conceived concept of blankness behind time and motion, has this concept been useful for you?...''

____ Yes.

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Sometime back Melanie wrote a beautiful quote which made tremendous impact in me. This one sentence summarizes whole existence. Look at the same:

"Awareness / Consciousness / Mind / are all the same ONE without a SECOND, without division...interplaying a reciprocal relationship."

I just want to explore this phrase a little deep.

What if everything is simply constructs happening in me?
What if Time and Space are simply constructs in me?
What if Subject and Objects are also me?
What if my own body and mind are constructs in me?
What if the seer and the seen are me?
What if Light and sound are also me?
What if the Universe is me?
What if everything is nothing but me?

  
Going deeply it looks as though everything is 'ME' only. Then who am I? Am I this perishable Body and Mind? Certainly No. That which exists never cease to exist. That which ceases to exist never exist.

So, Who am I? I must be the substratum of all that exists. I am Consciousness/Awareness. If anyone likes to call it as God, that is also Ok. If someone wants to call it as Light, that is also Ok. What is in the Name? A name is also a construct by the Mind only. Such Consciousness/ Awareness seems to be the only Reality. It is also the Me and You, He and She, It and They. Everything is mere constructs happening in me in infinite possibilities. This includes my own body and mind. Without this body and mind, I can not experience my own existence or absence. I (Consciousness/Awareness) create my own Body and Mind, become ignorant, play hide and seek game to realize my own self as a fun drama. I create this Universe, Space, Time and all contents therein in me.

How can I be sure that all the above statements are True? All the above are also statements and concepts of my mind only. Hence, Reality can never be proved. One has to simply realize the truth and get satisfied within one's own self.

One can also ascertain about the nature of Pure Awareness when one can shut down the mind and becoming one with the Pure Awareness in the Samadhi State. I feel so happy that I am ready to even die this moment. This moment is so much wonderful. All words look like a junk to me. I feel I have realized the Absolute Truth. Thank you Melanie.

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Response: That one can shut

Response: That one can shut down the mind and become one with pure awareness would be ONLY a statement and a concept in the mind. Similarly that YOU are ready to die and feel that YOU have realised the absolute truth would be a statement, a concept, and a CLAIM by the ego in the MIND ONLY.

Marcus

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Nice post gachchy

Thank you too.

What's looking out of your eyes is the same as what's looking out of mine. That's all we're made of.

And nice to see you active @ the forum again :)

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There are a few statements to examine

 1.  Here is some of what has been said, (Melanie answer only this part, I thought that you would recognize your own sentences?)

  • Anything seen is a concept because you can’t acknowledge something exists unless its source is also known.
  • That there appears to be gaps between what is seen is an illusion, there is no gap between any thing.
  • If the act of “looking” is unavailable to examine, what does that say about the contents of looking? This is proof that all solid objects are illusory images of a dreamer, (which is also illusory).
  • I only pretend to know it, albeit an idea in my imagination.

 

Let’s propose a simple experiment to know if these statements are true. 

  • There is a road
  • some trees
  • cars going here and there, and also parked
  • someone is making a left turn
  • You are driving along, (slowly I hope).

Now you slip a bag over your head to prove your theory that all solid objects are an illusion.  You have been believing you were in a continuum, but now you may quickly find that you were in a gap.

 

2.  Gachchy this part: “Awareness, consciousness and mind are all the same”.  Yes and No, of course they don’t exist. These things are not created just because someone made up some words.  It is just subjective you, and not three facets of subjective you.

 

But how does that relate to what is not subjective you?  You are asking What If? . . . and a whole list of stuff, is just me?  Some, like time and space you can settle with the simple experiment described above. Many of the questions propose a horrible limitation on those around you and your universe.  What if I don’t want to be YOU?  Do I have any free agency? I would feel horribly cramped if I had all of your ideas.

 

Now a few statements:

  • That which exists never ceases to exist.
  • (That may be a conservation in the micro, but can the macro combine and recombine?)
  • Conscious awareness is the substratum of all that exists.
  • (So?  that is fine.  I wouldn't put it that way but what does it mean to you?)
  • What’s in a name?
  • (All human violence starts with name calling.)
  • Everything is mere constructs happening in me in infinite possibilities.
  • (You don’t know everything, you don’t know how it may be constructed and you certainly don’t touch infinite, which is only a concept to all on earth.)
  • Without this body and mind, I can not experience my own existence or absence.
  • (Now this is practical, take care of them by watching what you think and where your attention goes.)
  • Play a hide and seek game to realize my own self as a fun drama.
  • (Do you get any solice out of this worn out and tattered metaphor?)
  • Reality can never be proved. One has to simply realize the truth and get satisfied within one's own self.
  • (Good for you. Just leave it when you get tired of wasting your time.)
  • One can shut down the mind and becoming one with the Pure Awareness
  • (that experience is not pure awareness, it is a form of sleep, rest well.)
  • All words look like a junk to me.
  • (Junk words are junk.)  
  • (Now try grounding them in what appears in your surroundings.  You can express and act out your values with regard to family, community and service?)

 

What do many of these beliefs give?  It was once said “lightness of being”.  I have lightness of being, but I wouldn’t profess any of this stuff.

 

  • By saying all is me I don’t hurt anything, unless I am feeling suicidal.
  • By saying all is illusion, nothing matters, and I am relieved that there is nothing to do about anything.
  • Maybe my anxiety goes down?

 

What do these many beliefs take away?

 

  • Now I have no responsibility for anything, so I am a drifter within the forces that be,
  • (other people who do take responsibility).
  • Now I am a victim.
  • Now I am trying to swallow, digest and excuse all the horribleness in the world.
  • Now I have no values, because they are also meaningless.
  • Now I am not an actor for any goodness or service to others, because it just doesn’t compute anymore.
  • Now I can live without goals or vision.

 

Isn't that is an expensive price to pay for a bit of lightness and relief?  But maybe you need it right now?

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Dear Richard,

Thanks for your wonderful views. I honor your views. But at the same time, what best I can say is everybody has a Private World of one's own. I simply live in my own private world. Marcus lives in his private world. Melanie lives in her own world. You live in your private world. Even though all of us share the same Physical Reality, nobody can shake the Mental World in which we live. The mental world is Unique. So mental reality itself is Private and unique, leave alone the dumb Physical World.

Nobody can stop me from being Happy just by watching an Ant throughout the day. No need to go to Himalayas or Antarctica to feel Happiness. For that matter I can just close my eyes and be happy for hours without any thoughts. What silence can give in the way of bliss can never be given by any objects or words. That is why I said words look junk to me.

I agree with your view that Samadhi State is analogues to sleeping. But, it gives me enough of Bliss.

At the end of the day, I also have to cut the wood and fetch water to make my living. That inevitably happens to me also. I am also driven accordingly.

It may look as though I am evading all my responsibilities, sitting idle and whiling away the time unproductively. I also have a family. I also have children. I also work and earn. I also make my children study well and bring them up very well. Those people who are around me always seek my advise in many crucial issues. They always appreciate my problem solving skills. My outlook towards the world only differs from that of a common man. The common man looks everything as real. I see everything as mere Illusion. That's the only difference.

I have always said again and again that I don't claim that what I say is the Truth. I always don't like to mislead anyone even by a miniscule. I agree that I may be 100% wrong. Also I don't believe in anybody dictating me what my Reality should be. I am of the opinion that we can only express our views and we should never trespass others views and comment 'You have only Knowledge and wisdom has not dawned on you', as one of our members often comments.

Mind fully occupies everyone of us to 100% and gives no room for anything else. Even the so called Wisdom and Intuition are also the extended forms of Knowledge and Experience only. How can anyone ever say that what he/she says about reality is absolutely correct?

What best I can say is, this is what (my earlier post) my mind considers as Reality. I have always advised people not to take my words for granted with a request to debug the truth on one's own accord and feel satisfied according to their own level of understanding.

My concluding remarks: We create our own Private World, Nurture and Live in it, even though we share a common Physical World. Everyone has one's own prerogative and understanding of reality. Is it not really wonderful to live in our own self created Heaven or Hell?

The above is what Reality means according to me. Those who knows this Truth become Submissive (Jnana). Those who become Submissive automatically knows this Truth (Bhakti).

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Philosophy must support day to day living or what's the point?

Technically no two things are exactly the same, neither two mind sets. However I feel that practically speaking, yours and mine approach an understanding in many ways. (I suppose that I can’t say that just from a half dozen paragraphs.)  From my view human life is lived on the level of day to day practicality, not on infinitesimal technicality. 

My continuous caution on this site is asking people not to parrot concepts without having discovered what speaking them adds to their life.  And of course they are free to do it.  I ask them to debug the truth on their own accord. (Never to just accept what I say.) That takes a weighing of what the words add to life and what they take away.  You have considered these things with practical experience and have answered my question.  

 

For me, knowing that the world is never definable exactly, allows me the freedom to hone my words to ever more practical levels of expressing my life.  What I just said could have used the substituted word of “illusion”, but I don’t choose that word for fear (almost certainty) that the listener would dismiss what they name as an illusion.  To many the word illusion automatically means, well, let’s find what isn’t an illusion.  In that sense, they will never find it.  To me, that means that illusion is the highest quality of life, because only illusion can be modified, tested and improved within my individual context.  How would you measure that?  Only by your own anxiety release and happiness level.  

 

The possibility that if you’re submissive you will find Bhakti, let that be their report, and not my advice.

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Dear Richard !!!

I accept your view that Reality and Illusion only differ by name. I may call it Illusion. Someone may call it Reality. How such a reality or illusion affects our daily life alone matters the most.

Coming to the aspect of Time, I have always believed that Time and Space are mental constructs only. We already know that Time and Space Continuum is a single phenomena. Time slows down while approaching the speed of light. At the point of speed of light, objects attain infinite mass or pure energy. Time becomes stand still at the speed of Light. At the speed of light Matter and Energy becomes unified and time dissolves. There is only energy at such speed of light for matter.It looks as though energy is the only absolute reality and all else are derived from it. It looks as though everything is mere play of Energy.

As I have already said that Time and Space are not absolute, I doubt whether movement itself is an illusion happening is Space, Time continuum. According to Xeno's paradox movement itself is impossible if Time is not a continuous quantity. We can not imagine a time which is not divisible. Since time itself is made of infinitesimal and discrete instants ad infinitum, the movement of Xeno's arrow becomes naturally impossible. Since we can divide time and space theoretically into infinitesimal elements the arrow must remain in the same place making movement impossible. On the other hand if Time is continuous without instants the concept of next instant itself becomes absurd. Then, we can not divide time into discrete elements. There is no Present, Past and Future. But, in reality we sense multiple instants of time which may be an illusion created by mind.

Nobody knows what exactly Time and Space are except as an experience happening in mind. If Time and Space are mere mental constructs, as I presume, all that we see as reality are also mental constructs only. The instant of now evaporates except as a timeless instant. In my opinion there is only a timeless instant called 'Now' in which the whole universe comes into being as a mere projection in the Universal Mind in which we are also a part.

Whether Reality is Real or Illusion, life has to be dealt with appropriately. There is no second opinion about that.

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Richard

Since everything is made up of atoms which is scientifically proven to be empty space, and since there is nothing else available to build matter, space therefore must be everything, I mean there is no place for solidity to hang out, where would it hang? Also, why do people having OOBE's or NDE's report they have experienced the feeling of weightlessness?

When there is a clumping together of tightly packed atoms which consist of electrons,protons and neutrons they create the illusion of solidity, but nothing is solid, rather there are just standing wave functions and the electromagnetic attraction/repulsion between them gives the appearance of solidity. And is why we can not walk through walls, science already knows why matter cannot do this.

''...Now you slip a bag over your head to prove your theory that all solid objects are an illusion. You have been believing you were in a continuum, but now you may quickly find that you were in a gap....''

In nondual terminology there is no gap, except as concept. Any apparent gap between objects are illusory. Without space there is no object...without object there is no space. Granted, no one one wants to notice this truth, it's nondual.

Is the seen thing separate from the seeing? nope- no gap.

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Richard

.............

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No one want’s to notice this truth, because it isn’t noticeable

Confusion of the Macro with the micro, two different things. In fact, atoms and the space that’s within them have been deduced from a conceptual model, that seems to answer a lot of questions that are raised by certain experiments. These experiments are limited and defined by a certain series of instrumentation (that neither you nor I have).  You and I are operating with a “built-in camera and microphone” eyes and ears.  

 

Both atoms and the space within them are concepts, and their properties are a deduction from these experiments.  I have no use of denying science nor anything, but I have no use of basing my life on yet another belief.  Science is just another bible to thump, albeit with the credentials of the church of higher learning.

 

I guess if there is no solidity and no gaps you never feel like you are in a crowded elevator. I only hope that this belief serves you well. I rest my case.

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Richard

I think we're talking about two different things here.
I'm talking about the ''between'' of subject and object.
The(ego) ... there is no such thing except as a mental construct.

You on the other hand appear to be talking about the sensation of ''space'' or lack of it between people in a crowded lift.

So I don't get what you want from the discussion, or even know what the point of the discussion is, please enlighten me further what it is we are actually talking about?

Maybe it's just me, I don't know.

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Talking about the power of words that create every experience

You may be saying that words have no power. They are merely part of an illusion.

I am saying that those particular words that I hear you saying, indeed have no power.

Why not experiment with choosing words that do have power. Test my theory for me.  It is your power to interpret this magic moment.  This power manifests in your good feeling.  Traveling life with good feeling (openness) allows the world to come in.  Then you can realize that everything is here. Instead of believing that nothing is here.

 

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Richard

The word nothing is meaningless, every word is meaningless.
Meaning is given to that which is already without meaning.

By consensus we all agree that the word GOOD is a good word. The meaning given to a word is but a subjective feeling, it's a fantasy. In reality/nature there is no good.

There is no I that acts as rule maker that says the word GOOD means good.

There is no I because there is no other than I and it is this I that is nothing being everything by association.

From belief to clarity.

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Hi Richard, There are

Hi Richard,

There are different descriptions of the manifestation proposed by non-duality. I would describe it as an illusion of separateness only, an appearance of difference where there is no difference whatsoever.

Differences look and feel very real. With current technology holograms create a very convincing illusion of solidity on the level of vision only which you can put your hand through. One non-dual suggestion is that mind has the capability of creating the illusion of solidity on the level of all the senses so you cant put your hand through the image, but it is nevertheless suggested that solidity is an illusion of difference where there is none.

This is not provable, at least not for me, but it can be understood why non-duality makes this suggestion as it explores the 'how' and 'why' of the manifestation. I would add that for me it is of academic interest only for my resonance with non-duality has nothing to do with the truth of the concept.

amit

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Non-Duality is a Thought

My original post creates a new context of time based on empirical experience. (Now never stops, with or without a concept about it.) I think that a new context is needed in order to move beyond old limitations.

Time as past, now, and future are all thoughts. The first and last are pure thoughts, (which also carry feelings). And the middle is a combination of some outside stimulation, plus our interpretation of that appearance. I suggest that there is no way to know what percentage of this is our interpretation, and what part “is just here”. Just as there is no basis to claim that it is all interpretation (all illusion).

Time in the now is a new context. It is continuous, everlasting, only perceived by life, (I don’t separate something called awareness, which is another thought). Life as we know it is tied to matter, matter is always in motion, motion equals time, therefore now displays life, matter, and motion, all of which are time. I have given these labels to write this, but this basic motion is not thought dependent.

This is not psychological time of past and future and memory. You might also be remembering it, and the psychological time is “going on” at the same time as this real time. I say that there has never been an experience in anyone’s life where the now has stopped. (I don’t know about the "now" stopping in death, because that is hearsay to me.)

It was said in a comment that the universe "is" happening, but humans cannot apprehend that directly, only approximately. I have no argument with that. In fact that is the beauty of life that can be embraced and celebrated, because we are always open to a finer interpretation of our life. What is a finer interpretation? One that produces less anxiety and less injustice. Most people that speak “illusion” back off of this game of life. They dismiss the best part of being alive. To play this game most skillfully, you must also “not take mind’s perspectives too seriously”.

It is said that motion is only possible because there is a field of stillness. It is true that motion is a relative measurement, and that no two bits of matter are in the same motion. Even with a speeding bullet, the front and the back of the bullet are in different motions, (spin, wobble, whatever). So it takes two to have motion. Therefore it takes two to have life. Non duality is the great illusion, (a thought). Without a 2nd there is no perception and there is no life.

Who’s to say that one of those two required for motion to be registered, is stillness???? Stillness is also a relative concept given by some, the honor of the absolute. If there ever could be stillness, it could never be approachable by life. "Stillness in life" is only a thought. I sincerely question it’s usefulness. The real power of living is knowing which thoughts to walk away from.

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Hi Richard, "Non duality is

Hi Richard,

"Non duality is the great illusion". Lets try to unravel this muddle if we can.

There is more than one description of Non-duality both in substance and the detail of its ramifications. Some accounts believe that truth can be known and describe it as such. In this description Non-duality is an idea only. Its an idea about the nature of the manifestation we see around us (including ourselves) linked with the spiritual search to end the feeling of disconnection/separation felt by some persons.

Most who describe it agree on the basic concept "All is One". It is this basic concept that drives the inquiry into what Non-duality means for us and the manifestation we see around us, its implications and ramifications.

In view of that scenario I suggest that it is easy to see why the inquiry considers that one implication is that the separation we see around us is illusory if there is only Oneness!

Is it not easy to see why that consideration arises?

amit

Love dreams difference where there is none

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Richard

''...Who’s to say that one of those two required for motion to be registered, is stillness???? Stillness is also a relative concept given by some, the honor of the absolute. If there ever could be stillness, it could never be approachable by life. "Stillness in life" is only a thought. I sincerely question it’s usefulness. The real power of living is knowing which thoughts to walk away from...''

''...I sincerely question it’s usefulness...''

The questioner is inseparable from the stillness.

From belief to clarity.

Part of the Action

We remain committed to be on the forefront of what will support life, both in your family and on planet earth. 

 

My interaction with you is an Experiment to further enable this vision to be true, and up to the rhythm that you are a part of the action.  

 

Please contribute to make this vision real.  

With Heart Felt Thanks, Richard Miller.

  

 

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