You are hereForums / Non-Duality / Does Real exist?

Does Real exist?


37 replies [Last post]
Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:

What is Real? Can we know that which is Real? If we can know It, how? If we can't know It, why?

0
Your rating: None

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

gachchy's picture
User offline. Last seen 2 weeks 5 days ago. Offline
Joined: 06/18/2014
Posts:
  

Devotee: What is reality?

Bhagavan: Reality must always be real. It has no names or forms but is what underlies them. It underlies all limitations, being itself limitless. It is not bound in any way. It underlies unrealities, being itself Real. It is that which is. It is as it is. It transcends speech and is beyond description such as being or non-being. (Page 5)

Bhagavan: You see various scenes passing on a cinema screen: fire seems to burn buildings to ashes; water seems to wreck ships;but the screen on which the pictures are projected remains unburnt and dry. Why? Because the pictures are unreal and the screen real. Similarly, reflections pass through a mirror but it is not affected at all by their number or quality.

In the same way, the world is a phenomenon upon the substratum of the single Reality which is not affected by it in any way. Reality is only One.

Talk of illusion is due only to the point of view. Change your viewpoint to that of Knowledge and you will perceive the Universe to be only Brahman. Being now immersed in the world, you see it as a real world; get beyond it and it will disappear and Reality alone will remain. (Page 6)

Bhagavan: Your thinking that you have to make an effort to get rid of this dream of a waking state and your making efforts to attain Realisation or real awakening are all parts of the dream. When you attain Realisation you will see there was neither the dream during sleep nor the waking state, but only yourself and your real state. (page 67)

Devotee: I have been interesting myself in meta-physics for over twenty years, but I have not gained any novel experiences as so many others claim to. I have no powers of clairvoyance, clairaudience, and so on. I feel locked up in this body, nothing more.

Bhagavan: That is all right. Reality is only one and that is the Self. All other things are mere phenomena in it, of it and by it. Seer, sight and seen are all the Self only. Can any one see or hear without the Self? What difference does it make if you see or hear
any one close up or at a great distance? The organs of sight and hearing are needed in both cases. So is the mind. None of them can be dispensed with. In either case you are dependent on them. Why then should there be any glamour about clairvoyance or clairaudience? Moreover, what is acquired will also be lost in due course. It can never be permanent. The only permanent thing is

Reality and that is the Self. You say, ‘I am’, ‘I am going’, ‘I am speaking’, ‘I am working’, and so on. Hyphenate the ‘I-am’ in all of them. Thus: ‘I-AM’. That is the abiding and fundamental Reality. This truth was taught by God to Moses: ‘I-AM that I-AM’; ‘Be still and know that I-AM GOD’, so ‘I-AM’ is God. (page 189)

The sannyasi visitor, Swami Lokesananda, asked about samadhi:

Bhagavan: 1. Holding on to Reality is samadhi.
2. Holding on to samadhi with effort is savikalpa samadhi.
3. Merging in Reality and remaining unaware of the world is nirvikalpa samadhi.
4. Merging in ignorance and remaining unaware of the world is sleep.
5. Remaining in the primal, pure, natural state without effort is sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. (page 191)

Read More

'The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi in his own words'

Edited by : Arthur Osborne

Sri Ramanashram, Tiruvannamalai, 2002

http://www.coursnondualite.com/Download/Teachings%20of%20Ramana%20Mahars...

====================================================
Maharaj: All you are conscious of is your mind; awareness is the cognisance of consciousness as a whole.. Don't say: 'everybody is conscious'. Say: 'there is consciousness', in which everything appears and disappears. Our minds are just waves on the ocean of consciousness. As waves they come and go. As ocean they are infinite and eternal. Know yourself as the ocean of being, the womb of all existence. These are all metaphors of course; the reality is beyond description. You can know it only by being it. (Page 53)

Maharaj: It is enough if you do not imagine yourself to be the body. It is the 'Iam-the-body'idea that is so calamitous. It blinds you completely to your real nature. Even for a moment do not think that you are the body. Give yourself no name, no shape. In the darkness and the silence reality is found. (page 69)

Qustioner: If all things come to an end, why did they appear at all?
Maharaj: Creation is in the very nature of consciousness. Consciousness causes appearances. Reality is beyond consciousness. (page 77)

Maharaj: Nothing you do will change you, for you need no change. You may change your mind or your body, but it is always something external to you that has changed, not yourself. Why bother at all to change? realise once for all that neither your body nor your mind, nor even your consciousness is yourself and stand alone in your true nature beyond consciousness and unconsciousness. No effort can take you there, only the clarity of understanding. Trace your misunderstandings and abandon them, that is all. There is nothing to seek and find, for there is nothing lost. Relax and watch the 'I am'. Reality is just behind it. Keep quiet, keep silent; it will emerge,or, rather, it will take you in. (page 131)

Maharaj: Reality is within consciousness, but it is not consciousness nor any of its contents. (page 136)

Read More

'I AM THAT' by Nisargadatta Maharaj

http://advaita.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/1-I-Am-That-Nisargadatt...
====================================================

Knowledge, what is to be known, and the knower - these three do not exist in reality. I am the spotless reality in which they appear because of ignorance. (page 19)

Read More

'Ashtavakra Gita'
Translation by John Richards

http://www.redlotusworld.org/resources/Ashtavakra%20Gita%20with%20Englis...

====================================================

According to the highest doctrines of Occultism there is only one Ultimate Reality underlying both the manifest and unmanifest states of Being. This Reality is an Integrated State which is changeless, indivisible, without distinctions and utterly beyond human comprehension, though it can be known by direct perception by penetrating through and transcending all the levels of the mind in the realm of manifestation, thus enabling consciousness to become aware of its Real underlying nature in the realm of the unmanifest. (page 12)

“It is nothing but the Ultimate Reality which, descending from the stage of pure consciousness becomes the individual mind, by becoming contracted to and assimilated with the images of objects present in the field of consciousness.” (page 14)

By freeing the mind from the obscurations caused by the mental worlds we have created round the eternal centre of our consciousness and obtaining again an awareness of that Ultimate Reality in which we really exist and have our being. (page 16)

These differences of interpretation and presentation are inevitable in describing a Reality which is transcendental in its nature and which can be known only by direct realization within our consciousness (page 17)

In the highest stages of meditation when the reality of any fact or principle of existence has to be realized the Yogi goes through the triple process of dharana, dhyana and samadhi until his consciousness becomes one with that reality and direct perception of the truth underlying that reality takes place within the deepest layers of his own Consciousness. (page 26)

Consciousness becomes differentiated into different states on passing through the Mahabindu and becomes integrated when its direction is reversed and it is re-established in the world of Reality which is referred to as “the Fourth State” or Turiya avastha. The manifested world is then also seen as an integral part of the One Reality and the distinction between the Unmanifest and the manifest disappears. (page 29)

The inability to distinguish between the Real and the unreal, lack of Selfawareness caused by Maya or the Great Illusion which makes us see the objective world as different from the Self instead of seeing the two as two aspects of the One Reality the third state of consciousness in which there is awareness but no pratyaya in the mind. (page 32)

Even though their mind is immersed in the work of the physical world, the contact with the world of Reality is never broken and they can become actively aware of that world instantaneously by retiring into the innermost levels of their consciousness. (page 145)

Read More

THE ULTIMATE REALITY AND REALIZATION
Siva-Sutra, with text in Sanskrit, transliteration in Roman, translation in English and commentary

Author : I. K. TAIMNI

https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/3167322/1384725976/name/shiva-sutra.pdf

THE SECRET OF SELF REALIZATION

Author : I. K. TAIMNI

http://www.discerning-wisdom.com/maha_siddha_herbs/pdfs/the_secret_of_se...

====================================================

New Mind-blowing Experiment Confirms That Reality Doesn’t Exist If You Are Not Looking at It

Read More

http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/11/11/consciousness-creates-rea...

http://themindunleashed.org/2015/06/new-mind-blowing-experiment-confirms...

http://free-will.de/reality.pdf

http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Holography_03.pdf

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150527103110.htm

http://nevernothere.com/forum/latest-findings-scientific-philosophical-r...

====================================================

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Nice

Thanks for those wonderful quotes. A lot there, but in many ways it is very simple, even easy, to take in.

I should apologize, I believe I spelled your name wrong a few times here and there. So, for that I apologize. Thanks for sharing

Gachchy :]

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

gachchy's picture
User offline. Last seen 2 weeks 5 days ago. Offline
Joined: 06/18/2014
Posts:
Hi Da!

Listen to the following statement very carefully and immediately absorb the truth:

"In the highest stages of meditation when the reality of any fact or principle of existence has to be realized the Yogi goes through the triple process of dharana, dhyana and samadhi until his consciousness becomes one with that reality and direct perception of the truth underlying that reality takes place within the deepest layers of his own Consciousness."

Reality can not be known/understood, but can be definitely realized. Many sadhaks have realized this stateless state which is devoid of expressions. There are numerous examples of this. One can become and altogether merge with the reality. Deep sleep is one such state of merging with reality but it is full of ignorance. But Samadhi is a state of realizing the same reality but devoid of any ignorance.

But, if someone is speaking about definite existence of reality, if it can not be known/realized by any means, is just like describing a non existent Unicorn.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Realization is knowing

Hey buddy,

If you have a look in my reply to Melanie, you will see my explanation of what I mean by Realization is knowing. It takes the idea deeper. Although, I definitely agree with your ideas and quotes here. Thanks again!

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

marcus's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 4 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 02/14/2010
Posts:
Mukti Da: What is Real? Can

Mukti Da:
What is Real? Can we know that which is Real? If we can know It, how? If we can't know It, why?

Response:
Real is either relative or absolute. The human mind has evolved to know the relative real. The human knows the relative real as thoughts in his mind. If the human does not know what is relatively real, it implies that the relative real has not evolved to be known in his relative mind. The absolute real can neither be known nor experienced as thoughts.

www.academy-advaita.com

Marcus Stegmaier

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Hey brother Marcus

Thanks for your comments.

Do we have another way, not involving thoughts or experience, that we can know the Real?

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

marcus's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 4 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 02/14/2010
Posts:
Mukti Da" Do we have another

Mukti Da" Do we have another way, not involving thoughts or experience, that we can know the Real?"

Response;
The relative real can only be known and experienced as thoughts. Thoughts are however illusory and so the relative real is illusory and not real, like a dream, a mirage or imagination.

www.academy-advaita.com

Marcus Stegmaier

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Marcus: "The relative real

Marcus: "The relative real can only be known and experienced as thoughts. Thoughts are however illusory and so the relative real is illusory and not real, like a dream, a mirage or imagination."

Are feelings (like love and pain) different from thoughts? Can one have pain without deifining it? Is pain prior to thoughts about it or not?

Thoughts seem to be something that follows or are born from experience, but experience (existence itself) is not born from thoughts. There was stuff going on before you were born and after the body dies stuff will keep going. So, is there another form of knowing that does not necessarily involve thoughts? When a person feels love for another, there is an unspoken awareness of this, beyond words, maybe this is where we could look for that 'way of knowing'?

Thanks for your response Marcus

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
Reply to Jared

''When a person feels love for another, there is an unspoken awareness of this, beyond words, maybe this is where we could look for that 'way of knowing'?''

Response: You would not know love with out the word of knowledge.

The love for another is love for your self - for without other there is no you - and there is no other - therefore what you think or imagine your self to be - is not self.

The imagination of self is born of concept and seeks it's continuity through the imagined invention of love aka one and other.

Believing we can get love from other is the cause of all suffering and misery in the world. Love without the need for other is freedom and peace.

From belief to clarity.

marcus's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 4 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 02/14/2010
Posts:
Mukta Da, ...Are feelings

Mukta Da,

...Are feelings (like love and pain) different from thoughts? Can one have pain without deifining it? Is pain prior to thoughts about it or not?Thoughts seem to be something that follows or are born from experience, but experience (existence itself) is not born from thoughts. There was stuff going on before you were born and after the body dies stuff will keep going. So, is there another form of knowing that does not necessarily involve thoughts? When a person feels love for another, there is an unspoken awareness of this, beyond words, maybe this is where we could look for that 'way of knowing'?

Response:

Pain and love is known by thoughts, and so too that thoughts seem to be something that follows or are born from experience is known through thoughts. Similarly that there was stuff going on before you or I were born and after the body dies the stuff would be going is only known as thoughts. When a person feels love for another and that there is unspoken awareness beyond words is known it is only through thoughts. A person who loves lives and does not know it is love.

www.academy-advaita.com

Marcus Stegmaier

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Ok

It seems you feel thought is the only kind of experiential reality. So does that mean thoughts are the only form of consciousness you believe exists? And thus, the only kind of knowledge possible, and that knowledge is an illusion.

Is this right? Here is what I think...

The Real necessarily exist by default.

I don't agree with the idea that thought is the only kind of knowledge or experiential reality. I feel Realization is the ultimate form of knowing. From that knowing all other possible kinds of knowing manifest. Each kind of knowing, like thought for example, is a more and more vague form from the ultimate knowing. But in each kind of knowing, such as thought based, we can know specifics, details, and of the parts.

It is like zooming in with a microscope, and as the microscope zooms in less and less of the macroscopic is visible, which is a kind of transition of kinds of knowledge. Ultimate knowledge, beyond thought based, beyond any form, formless knowledge is the substance of all forms of knowing. All forms of knowing follows from an ultimate knowing. No ultimate knowing, means no local (individual) knowing.

Basically knowledge is only possible if something is Real, if there is an ultimate Knowing. That which is Real would have to be Real beyond thoughts, and free of the change of thoughts, free of any change. The ultimate form of knowing would be the formless base of all kinds of knowing that are possible. The ultimate Knower is the Real ItSelf, ultimate, universal consciousness. It does not make sense to think of this kind of knowing in the same limitations of the 5 senses.

There are two ideas about how consciousness came or comes about in the universe. One says that once the right conditions are met consciousness appears. The other says that consciousness is what reality is made from and of, and therefore, as various forms of consciousness come into existence various forms of consciousness will inevitably manifest through those forms.

This leads me to say that thought is but one form of knowing/consciousness. That consciousness does not begin and end with thought, that existence itself is consciousness undivided, knowing undivided. The idea of thought being the beginning and end of consciousness follows in line with the idea that consciousness comes about only after the right random conditions are met in the universe. This means that consciousness is not native to existence, and that consciousness is simply a random occurrence.

At least that is how I feel about those ideas.

Sorry about not responding directly to you. I did not want to repeat what I wrote earlier. So, I did some rewording here.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
thoughts only?

Hey Marcus,

I kind of responded to you and Gachchy in my reply to Melanie. Please have a look in my last reply to her for some of my ideas that talk about my feelings on thoughts.

Thanks for your reply, maybe my comments there will draw some further comments from you.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

marcus's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 4 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 02/14/2010
Posts:
Mukti da, Please reply to me

Mukti da,
Please reply to me and I shall respond. Please do not ask me to look for your reply to me in another post addressed not to me.

www.academy-advaita.com

Marcus Stegmaier

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
We just don’t know!

There is no direct evidence whatsoever that anything is real.Nobody has the slightest idea how or why anything material is conscious in the first place.

There is no direct evidence of the source of anything. So nothing can be known of that which only exists as pure imagination.

What is imagination? - we don't know.
What is thought? - we don't know.
What is consciousness? - we don't know.

We only know these concepts by the knowledge imposed upon us by society - we don't REALLY know anything at all except that what we have been conditioned to believe imposed on us by someone else. Where did they get their knowledge from? ... they got it from someone else....etc - is any knowledge actually original?

We are basic living phantoms. Some people don't know they are a living corpse- in fact the majority of us believe they are real only because there is a basic desire to function sanely in the world.If we didn't believe in our real existence - the life of human being would be absolute chaos.

Continual exposure to the belief in the real reduces our awareness of it's unreality until we become blind to the obvious fact that there is nothing of any significance here whatsoever, except as imagined or fantasised.

If you know someone who has passed away from this material life - you knew that someone once existed - but now they have died - so where is that person now ? - was that person ever real? if so - where is that person now? we have no idea where that person is or even who that person was and why that person was or is or isn't. We simply do not know. We can only speculate on ideas via wishful fanciful thinking, which would be like chasing rainbows.

To talk about something being real in this context is absurd.

So much for our philosophy.

From belief to clarity.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Hey sister Melanie

Thanks for sharing your comments.

Melanie: "Continual exposure to the belief in the real reduces our awareness of it's unreality until we become blind to the obvious fact that there is nothing of any significance here whatsoever, except as imagined or fantasised."

Is the Real here, does the Real exist, whether we have beliefs in it or not?

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
Reply to Jared

Jared ''Is the Real here, does the Real exist, whether we have beliefs in it or not?''
____________

Response: Whether there is belief or not of something real. We have absolutely no way of experiencing it. So my logic would tell me the real does not exist whether I believe it or not.

I could believe real exists, but that would be a lie since there is no way I can prove it or experience it. To say the words '' I exist '' is the illusion because to know that implies knowledge which in turn implies a knower - is would be an imposition at best - it would be a noun -meaning two - yet reality is a verb - meaning one. That's why reality is an illusion because it is impossible for one thing to exist. The idea that reality is real or not cannot be put into words or spoken of without causing paradox or contradiction - and there are no paradoxes in nature.

The real exists as a thought or a belief which are illusions - thoughts and beliefs are phantoms in the same way that pain, pleasure, flavours, odours,feelings, sound, or images of light are all phantoms. For example: someone with tinnitus can hear constant head noise - the noise is phantom. A person with an amputated limb may still feel sensation in the missing limb. The sensation is phantom.
All senses are phantom. There is no thing real except the belief or thought - that which believes and thinks does not exist except as phantom, therefore the belief and thought is phantom.

The one experiencing all these senses we call awareness - even this is a phantom. There is awareness and yet no one owns it. There is no thing you can call your own. You cannot separate yourself from awareness and look at it.

That what we call awareness which is devoid of all change,time,thought,sense,belief etc...that which has no quality or attribute whatsoever - is not real either - the idea of awareness is born out of the knowledge who have, therefore known - this knowing is illusory. Awareness itself does not know it exists, in the same way the body and all it's organs does not know they exist, in the same way a fish does not know the water in which it swims.

To turn an unknown no thing-ness into some thing to be known is an illusory perception of brain activity, no brain, no nothing. To speak of awareness being something beyond the illusory known is to speak of the unknown which is absurd.

That there does appear the sense of thought and belief in the here and now - there is no thinker or believer to be found anywhere.

From belief to clarity.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
gracefully

Melanie: "We have absolutely no way of experiencing it. So my logic would tell me the real does not exist whether I believe it or not."

What if you're not being logical? Existence is not real? There is no Real to reality? Would that mean that there is only non-existence?

Melanie: "The idea that reality is real or not cannot be put into words or spoken of without causing paradox or contradiction - and there are no paradoxes in nature."

Why would saying Reality is Real being a paradox or a contradiction? If I say existence is Real, what paradox or contradiction does that comment contain? Even if thoughts are limited, and that is understood, would the fact that a bodily being is alive/existing (to whatever degree) be enough evidence that existence is Real?

Melanie: "I could believe real exists, but that would be a lie since there is no way I can prove it or experience it. To say the words '' I exist '' is the illusion because to know that implies knowledge which in turn implies a knower"

The statement:

"Existence exist"

contradicts your assertion and perceived 'logic'.

Check out Ayn Rand's writings on this.

"Existence exists—and the act of grasping that statement implies two corollary axioms: that something exists which one perceives and that one exists possessing consciousness, consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exists.

If nothing exists, there can be no consciousness: a consciousness with nothing to be conscious of is a contradiction in terms. A consciousness conscious of nothing but itself is a contradiction in terms: before it could identify itself as consciousness, it had to be conscious of something. If that which you claim to perceive does not exist, what you possess is not consciousness.

Whatever the degree of your knowledge, these two—existence and consciousness—are axioms you cannot escape, these two are the irreducible primaries implied in any action you undertake, in any part of your knowledge and in its sum, from the first ray of light you perceive at the start of your life to the widest erudition you might acquire at its end. Whether you know the shape of a pebble or the structure of a solar system, the axioms remain the same: that it exists and that you know it.

To exist is to be something, as distinguished from the nothing of nonexistence, it is to be an entity of a specific nature made of specific attributes. Centuries ago, the man who was—no matter what his errors—the greatest of your philosophers, has stated the formula defining the concept of existence and the rule of all knowledge: A is A. A thing is itself. You have never grasped the meaning of his statement. I am here to complete it: Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification.

Reality is that which exists; the unreal does not exist; the unreal is merely that negation of existence which is the content of a human consciousness when it attempts to abandon reason.

Existence is a self-sufficient primary. It is not a product of a supernatural dimension, or of anything else. There is nothing antecedent to existence, nothing apart from it—and no alternative to it. Existence exists—and only existence exists. Its existence and its nature are irreducible and unalterable.

The first and primary axiomatic concepts are “existence,” “identity” (which is a corollary of “existence”) and “consciousness.”

One can study what exists and how consciousness functions; but one cannot analyze (or “prove”) existence as such, or consciousness as such. These are irreducible primaries. (An attempt to “prove” them is self-contradictory: it is an attempt to “prove” existence by means of nonexistence, and consciousness by means of unconsciousness.)

An axiomatic concept is the identification of a primary fact of reality, which cannot be analyzed, i.e., reduced to other facts or broken into component parts. It is implicit in all facts and in all knowledge. It is the fundamentally given and directly perceived or experienced, which requires no proof or explanation, but on which all proofs and explanations rest.

end quotes - sourced> http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/existence.html"

How do your ideas not contradict any of this? Based on these ideas your logic and reasoning are neither. However, I did ask and you responded gracefully. Thanks. Please discuss further your ideas in light these quotes above if or when you want. Thanks again Melanie.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
There are no paradoxes in nature

Jared: ''Why would saying Reality is Real being a paradox or a contradiction? If I say existence is Real, what paradox or contradiction does that comment contain? Even if thoughts are limited, and that is understood, would the fact that a bodily being is alive/existing (to whatever degree) be enough evidence that existence is Real?''

__________

Response: To say reality is real is a contradiction of nature. Nature does not know it is alive or real. So it's a contradiction to say real when that which gives birth to the idea is unreal since all concepts are born of thought which do not exist. Have you ever seen a thought?

The idea of any concept -real/alive/consciousness - are born of thought - THOUGHTS are illusory. Thoughts existence are pure illusion like the existence of a rainbow.

That what you call real existence is an illusion - that's all I'm saying. Illusion because you cannot separate yourself from your thought and look at it ''I exist therefore I am real'' is an illusory idea. Since it has no way of looking at itself- it is a reflection.

I don't know if you can grasp what I am saying, but no matter because it is logic and sense to me.

The body is functioning all by itself - as does all of nature - it has no knowledge that it is alive, it does not know death. The body does not ask the question am I alive or real- consciousness does not ask the question either. So who is asking the question? who want's to know that which cannot be known?

First find the one asking the questions regarding existence / real or what ever you want to know. Find that one and tell me if it is real or not - it is this one I refer to when I try to explain my theory that there is no one to know if real exists. So the very point of asking the question is absurd.

The one asking the question does not exist - it is not real...how do I know - I don't. Anything that wants to know anything is an illusion. All knowing is born of this same illusion aka knowledge -imposed/imposter.

Your knowledge of real existence is a red-herring.

Trying to know if reality is real is like wandering around in your dream at night asking each character 'are you real.' do you think they would know?

The one that knows it is alive does not exist.

From belief to clarity.

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
Reply to Jared

''What if you're not being logical? Existence is not real? There is no Real to reality? Would that mean that there is only non-existence?''

______

Response: The one that knows does not exist. The one that does not know exists.

From belief to clarity.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Right on

No hard feelings here. I feel like I understand you, but that does not mean I feel like you understand me. We share some of the same ideas. However, it seems you simply stop at not knowing, because I notice this -- I nudge you deeper. Maybe you don't think that. Maybe you feel like you are doing this with me. Either way, so be it. We can talk and be free of the conversation.

My ideas on REAL.
Does Real exist?

There can Only Be the Real.

My answer is that there is only the Real. Realization is not separate from the Real. Realization is the Knowing of Real As the Real, As oneSelf. This knowing does not involve thoughts, but thoughts are born from that which is Real or no thoughts would appear. Without any kind of Real, thoughts would lack any kind of value regarding accuracy (like science) or application in life (kindness and compassion). Thoughts don't spring from chaos and non-existence, since thoughts are a form of knowing Reality (one that is harmonious not chaotic), there must be a fundamental consciousness that is REAL.

The Real exist prior to any and all thoughts, bodies and so on. Meaning even though thoughts are an opaque form of knowing things, that knowing is of that which is Real, no matter how well our ideas are able to describe the Real.

The Real is made of existence and (transcendent) consciousness, those are not different from each other. Realization would then be realization of existing, forever, transcendent of any and all bodily forms and universes. Even though thought can't explain that exactly, thought is definitely telling us about It.

Self is Aware/Conscious of ItSelf, that consciousness is Realization, and Realization is the knowing, it is the recognition of itself (there is nothing else), and the identifying As ItSelf. The REAL does not need an opposite, non-existence, in order to know ItSelf. The body/mind finds this hard to understand since it bases much of its knowing on opposites. The REAL does not need non-existence to Know It Is. This knowing transcends thoughts and forms of knowing about things of the universe. Why would the limitations of a body/mind, especially regarding the ideas of knowledge of Self, be applied to that which transcends it?

Realization is the source of knowing the Real, and as various forms of Reality manifest (different universes and so on), in different degrees and ways, different ways of talking about or thinking about, or living the Real (Realization) manifests. However, Realization ItSelf never changes in relationship to the bodies It Realizes ItSelf As, only the bodies change in relationship to Realization, to live It more fully and freely.

I think thoughts are an indication that there is something much 'larger' than thoughts that is Real. I think thoughts are born from a Real reality or why or how could any thought come to be?

More on my ideas>
Existence and consciousness are inseparable. Existence does not exist without an inherent universal, transcendent consciousness.

This reminds me of something Gachchy posted in another thread, regarding the collapse of the wave function via consciousness. Existence is not dependent on individual consciousness/bodies for the collapse of the wave function. Eternal Transcendent Cosnciousness is all that is needed to collapse the universeal wave function.

Taking this idea further, one may consider that the individual collapse of the wave function (by looking) could be a further collapse of the wave function locally from universally.

Existence ItSelf Is the universal collapse of the wave function, thus, existence exist whether or not individuals are conscious. Realization (the Real) is the Universal Viewer. It is formless, has no name, and it does not depend upon a body/mind for consciousness, yet it gives consciousness to body/minds.

It is aware of ItSelf, thus the collapse of the wave function universally, prior to any individual bodies existing. In other words, the electrons traveling across vast distances do not disappear because the universal One is Aware (looking). I feel like thought is not the only kind of knowing, and that there are deeper ways of knowing (deeper layers of consciousness prior and/or beyond thought) that which is Real that does not involve thoughts.

The 'REAL' has no antecedent, there is nothing prior to REAL; it does not depend on anything to exist itself. The REAL does not have an opposite. The REAL has no metaphysical antonyms. In other words, there is no such thing as unREAL. There is no such thing as non-existence. The REAL is not paradoxical, but only in relation to a body/mind pondering that which transcends it (body/mind).

My last comment regarding your comments is that with all the negation of things, especially of knowledge, how then do you feel about that your negation contradicts your knowledge of no knowledge. Knowledge is even knowing you don't know.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
Reply to Jared

''I think thoughts are an indication that there is something much 'larger' than thoughts that is Real. I think thoughts are born from a Real reality or why or how could any thought come to be?''

_________

Response: Real reality is born of thought - the proof is in your statement.
If there is no demand for thought - they are not there - so how can they have a real reality from which they come to be if that real reality depends on the thought itself.
That real reality would have to be the 'not there thoughtless state' before the thought - how can this be known as real?

There is nothing there prior to a thought which initiates that thought - there is only what you know via thought - if thought is born of a real reality - then that too is part of your knowledge which is illusory. So you cannot assert there is something larger existing prior to thought in order for thought to be.

There is a 'not knowing knowing' that we know as knowledge demands - but you cannot identify it as either existence or non-existence, as either real or not real simply because you would have to experience it which is impossible.

It seems Jared sees reality as real. Whereas melanie sees reality as an illusion. What if real and illusion are one and the same reality- what if there is no distinction between them. I guess there must be a real ground state for anything to exist at all- in the same way moving pictures on a tv set is dependant on a screen. The illusion of moving images projected by the screen is what creates the real - so both screen and pictures are mutually dependant meaning they are the same one.

From belief to clarity.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Words have meaning or they mean nothing

Words do have meaning and I can't say that real and illusion are the same. If illusion 'exists' then it depends on Real to manifest. Real is the antecendent of illusion no matter how you try to define or word it. Illusion is not prior to the Real. Illusion, if for example someone experiences illusion, manifests in a REALity.

I don't accept the idea that the infinite and eternal consciousness of Reality is involved with opposites and paradoxes. Therefore, the idea of illusion can only be secondary, not primary for existence to exist nor is it on par/equal with the Real, that which is Real. The Real is not mutually dependent on illusion to exist.

Melanie: "Real reality is born of thought - the proof is in your statement."

Yea, I can't go along with this either. For an undisciplined (assertive) philosphical mind to discuss philosphy with one that appreciates and embraces the definitions and methods of logic and reason runs aground quickly and ends up going no where.

Have we reached the usual getting off point where the conversation ends? I think you and I are almost there, if we have not already passed that point.

When you say that something is reasonable and logical for you, but that reasoning and 'logic' does not follow the actual methods for reason and logic, then it is not actually reason or logic you are using to come to your conclusions.

I used thought to show that beyond thought, using real logic and reasoning (that are exercised on the methods for using logic and reason), there is an undeniable Real that is not thought based existence. The Real does not need to be experienced like a body/mind experiences, to be Realized (known). The Real of reality is not thought based existence. The Real exist prior to thought, not Only simultaneously when thought happens.

Now, talking 'philosophy' about Realization, God, Existence ItSelf has its limitations. I understand this.

Melanie: "If there is no demand for thought - they are not there - so how can they have a real reality from which they come to be if that real reality depends on the thought itself."

Reality does not depend on thought. You have not given me anything (seriously) that indicates this to be true. I know you think you have, but I don't.

Melanie: "That real reality would have to be the 'not there thoughtless state' before the thought - how can this be known as real?"

A person can know Real because we are not separate from the Real. We are made of the Real. The Real Is existence plus consciousness, as one inseparable reality. The Real Knows ItSelf. If a person tries to understand this by asserting the Real is bound to the same parameters as the body/mind you will miss the clarity of that which Transcends the body/mind and its limited knowledge.

What I said earlier is that Realization is the foundation of all knowledge. We would not have any kind of knowledge without an ultimate foundation for all knowledge. However, the foundation of knowledge is not known like the components of various types of knowledge that spring from the foundation.

Realize your Self, and you will Know the Real.

Turning to me at this point and saying I am caught up in words is a misunderstanding of all I have written here. Saying I should just say Reall and illusion are actually just two sides of the same coin is something I do not accept nor can I come to accept this either.

Have a blessed day.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
You know nothing John Snow

Jared: ''A person can know Real because we are not separate from the Real.

The Real does not need to be experienced like a body/mind experiences, to be Realized (known).''

Response: You cannot know what you have not experienced.To say that which you are not separated from doesn't need to be an experience - yet it is known or realised... is like saying I know or realise something but I have never experienced it. This means that what ever it is you think you know or realise is imagined.So even the real is imagined.
The real cannot imagine itself - it needs an instrument of interpretation - any interpretation is an illusion. In the same way .. no ear ever heard - there is only sound. Or no eyeball ever saw -there is only seeing. The idea of eyeball and ear are conceptual interpretation / illusions. You may want to call sound and vision real but you can only do so with the imagined knowledge aka the labels you have made up for them - you have no knowing or direct experience of the source of anything you think you know. You cannot get beyond this imaginary knowing to touch real knowing for one very good reason.

If you believe you can then congratulations to you in reaching the foundation of all imagined knowledge and being able to say with absolute certainty that it is real.

_______

Jared: '' If a person tries to understand this by asserting the Real is bound to the same parameters as the body/mind you will miss the clarity of that which Transcends the body/mind and its limited knowledge.''

Response: I've never heard anything so ridiculous in my life and I don't believe anything you are saying is true.

That which appears to transcend the body/mind never transcended since it has never existed except as a concept.You are using unreliable transcendental concepts to reach the real source of any concept / knowledge - this is nothing more than ego activity which is an illusion.

From belief to clarity.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Melanie: "That which appears

Melanie: "That which appears to transcend the body/mind never transcended since it has never existed except as a concept.You are using unreliable transcendental concepts to reach the real source of any concept / knowledge - this is nothing more than ego activity which is an illusion."

Saying I am using unreliable transcendental concepts is strange. Mind sharing 'reliable' transcendental concepts?

Have you read any of the original texts of the Advaita Vendata, Pali Canon, Siva Sutras, and original Buddhist teachings on suffering, conditional existence, and Nirvana. Have you studied the primary differences between Buddhism and the Advaita Vendata? Or have you just taken up your own form of non-duality and have no need to consider the history and teachers of non-dual Realization? I suggest your ideas are not really nondual. Claiming Reality is nothing more than thoughts, and nothing transcends thoughts is no where near a nondual philosophy.

It would be really beneficial for you to actually spend time reading the ancient texts, reading commentaries on these texts, and comparing your ideas of nonduality verses those scriptures. Be ready to abandon many pretenses you have hedged around you over the years.

Melanie: "That which appears to transcend the body/mind never transcended since it has never existed except as a concept.You are using unreliable transcendental concepts to reach the real source of any concept / knowledge - this is nothing more than ego activity which is an illusion."

If nothing transcends thought, there is no way, no possibility, no chance of ever living a Realized life. What this means is that if Reality is like as you say, then you and no one else has or can Realize. In other words, Realization would never happen to anyone. Realization would not be possible in any form. Basically, nonduality would not be the nature of existence. Duality would be the fundamental nature of existence.

Your ideas have consequences, meaning. If you follow the meanings you end up in a dualistic reality that is pure illusion and no part of existence (even consciousness itself) transcends thought itself. Which means Realization is a moot point, it is a non-sequitor, it means Realization is meaningless. It means your ideas are illusion, and nothing you (or anyone else) say has meaning or value.

I don't think you will take my advice and go read and make your ideas vulnerable to change. So be it.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

gachchy's picture
User offline. Last seen 2 weeks 5 days ago. Offline
Joined: 06/18/2014
Posts:
HI ALL !!!

The moot question here is, can ONENESS be experienced, transcending the MIND? Is it possible to go beyond the realms of Mind and taste the Ineffable? Is it possible to transcend the Mind and experience the so called ULTIMATE REALITY? Or is experiencing of Reality simply a jugglery of our Minds?

Here is a beautiful compilation on the above subject as told by various masters:

http://www.lightwinnipeg.org/Spiritual%20Writings/Mystical%20Experience%...

(Many more beautiful writings : http://www.lightwinnipeg.org/Spiritual%20Writings/)

My finding: In the end, deciphering everything we find that there is nothing other than Awareness. Thoughts and Consciousness merely arise and subside as waves (thoughts/consciousness) happen to arise in Ocean (Impersonal Awareness). In deep sleep we don't realize this Awareness because the Mind is switched off. But, by entering the Samadhi state we can switch off the Mind and still experience the all pervading Awareness without getting into deep sleep mode. Deep sleep and Samadhi are the no mind states of MERGING with the Ultimate Reality but with a subtle difference.

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
Reply to gachchy

gachchy: ''My finding: In the end, deciphering everything we find that there is nothing other than Awareness. Thoughts and Consciousness merely arise and subside as waves (thoughts/consciousness) happen to arise in Ocean (Impersonal Awareness). In deep sleep we don't realize this Awareness because the Mind is switched off. But, by entering the Samadhi state we can switch off the Mind and still experience the all pervading Awareness without getting into deep sleep mode. Deep sleep and Samadhi are the no mind states of MERGING with the Ultimate Reality but with a subtle difference.''

Response: There is one unmoving mind we and every other creature share - this mind cannot be known - but can be felt as this immediate presence we call Reality - Reality is either switched On or Off...as in the case of Life and Death. No one can experience ..be aware of Life or Death....for it is one unitary movement through infinity - meaning it's not actually moving anywhere, it just appears to be. Therefore there is no Reality or Infinity except as a conceptual thought...which is an imagined ripple of movement within that which does not and never has existed beyond or separate from the thought itself.

From belief to clarity.

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
Jared: ''Have you read any of

Jared: ''Have you read any of the original texts of the Advaita Vendata, Pali Canon, Siva Sutras, and original Buddhist teachings on suffering, conditional existence, and Nirvana. Have you studied the primary differences between Buddhism and the Advaita Vendata? Or have you just taken up your own form of non-duality and have no need to consider the history and teachers of non-dual Realization? I suggest your ideas are not really nondual.''

Response: I've taken up my own form of non-duality.Where do you suppose all the other teachings you have listed above including your own - where do you think they got all their form of non-duality from?

They got it from the same place I got mine - no big deal. What is mine not good enough for the likes of you? is yours better than mine? it's very unbecoming of you to doubt other peoples approach to understanding the ineffable.
__________

Jared: ''Basically, nonduality would not be the nature of existence. Duality would be the fundamental nature of existence.''

Response: FYI .. Nonduality is duality. As oneness cannot be known or experienced. The one mind appears to divide itself into this and that as a conditioned thought which is experienced as 'I' - The 'I' is the part of the whole that thinks I'm apart...it has no way of thinking in terms of whole or anything else without causing division... causeless cause of an illusory effect being one unitary movement has no way of knowing or experiencing anything except as imagined within the dream of illusory separation.

Sorry to hear you do not adhere to my nondual interpretation, but quite frankly I don't give a damn.

From belief to clarity.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
...

Melanie: "I've taken up my own form of non-duality.Where do you suppose all the other teachings you have listed above including your own - where do you think they got all their form of non-duality from?

They got it from the same place I got mine - no big deal. What is mine not good enough for the likes of you? is yours better than mine? it's very unbecoming of you to doubt other peoples approach to understanding the ineffable."

You and I did not 'get our nonduality' from the same place. Your 'form of nonduality' is not the same as Enbrightenment, or any of the references I suggested. The writings, traditions, and Masters of these traditions did not happen in a vacuum. Which seems to be how you think your ideas of nonduality happened (in a vacuum), thus, your own version of nonduality. Fundamentally this means you simply make it up as you go along.

What is now really clear to me is that:

1: you created your own 'form of nonduality', which says (and I quote Melanie) "Nonduality is duality."

which means>

2: fundamentally, no one else can understand your ideas of nonduality because it is your form and no one else's.

because>

3: your 'form of nonduality' is not aware of previous forms of nonduality

4: your main ideas are not based on anything that can be referenced from what are traditional forms of nonduality.

5: it does a person no good to talk with you about nonduality if that person is referencing historical teachings, scriptures and Gurus from the nondual traditions that have been passed onto us.

6: since you have your own 'form of nonduality' it does no good to talk with anyone else about nonduality.

7: you have your own personal truth, which means you have a separate truth from everyone else.

Having your own form of nonduality is your business. But you can understand that going forward in conversations with me on nonduality that I am referencing and in line with historical traditions. And Enbrightenment (itself) stands on the shoulders of past teachers, traditions, scriptures, but is not solely dependent upon them, which means Enbrightenment as a nondual tradition can stand on its own as well. However, that 'standing on its own' does not mean the teachings are somehow disconnected from our historical nondual traditions such as Buddhism and Advaitism (talking school and practicing school).

It means that Enbrightenment offers a complete tradition and revelation of Realization of nonduality. My teachings are not in need of various ancient scriptures to serve as the founding scriptures. Everything has been written a fresh and new, using freshly engineered terms to give the writings a modern tense and feel.

So, if you want to have a discussion with me please take this info into context first. I will no longer place your ideas of nonduality in the context of history and previous teachings and scriptures. That being said, there really is nothing nondual you and I can talk about. Kinda clears up why there has been so much disconnect between your ideas of nonduality and mine.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
You are such a sheep.

Jared: ''Everything has been written a fresh and new, using freshly engineered terms to give the writings a modern tense and feel.''

Response: Yes, you are right about me making it up as I go along.How observant of you, how long did it take you to work that out? gees get over yourself.

There is nothing new or original with these ideas - your writing and all the others are nothing more than regurgitated cud passed on from generation to generation like an out of control virus. You are a simple parrot like everyone else - no matter how much perfume you put on a pig - a pig will always be a pig. All you are doing is dressing up the same old BS with your fancy made -up names calling it Enbrightenment cleaning polish for your filthy mirrors.

I am not fooled by other peoples ideas about what they think they know about reality. I listen to my own thoughts and feelings. I can think for myself thank you very much. I'm not fooled by the idea that there are masters of esoteric and metaphysical knowledge who think they have a handle on reality over and above others, who also think they speak with absolute certainty and superiority on the nature of reality.

Just about anyone can jump on this spiritual awakening bandwagon BS these days, you don't need real qualifications for spouting such pseudo jargon - you are no more special or important than any other creature who shares this planet - what's really disgusting is when they try to sell what they imagine to be their sacred special ancient historic crap to other desperate gullible people...it's the sickness of the human mind. I'm not fooled by anything that comes from human thought.

Of course everything that comes out of human thinking comes from the same place - namely, nowhere.Where do you think it comes from? do you think they found their knowledge on the floor or under a gooseberry bush?

When I read your comments, I feel like I'm reading excerpts from the beano comic I used to read when I was a kid because your replies are so outrageously funny, so keep on entertaining me with your idiotic ideas - it's simply the best entertainment going.

My advice - please stop using high sounding words to make yourself look clever. Keep it simple so a child can understand it.

From belief to clarity.

RichardMiller's picture
User offline. Last seen 16 weeks 12 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 09/20/2009
Posts:
Let me try to offer another perspective.

Some interesting exchanges, and some interesting deeply thought out relationships in logic.

Clearly the questioner wants confirmation that he can, (and indeed he does) somehow touch something that he calls reality.  The respondees are more or less saying, you don’t, you can’t, and you couldn’t be sure anyhow.

I note that just because a question can be formulated, it doesn’t mean that a possible answer will have any payback.  Therefore we can watch where we idle away our time on earth, and carefully consider where to put our focus.

Now maybe the subjective experience of this touching (or illusion of touching) a “reality” is so powerfully satisfying that it is worth subordinating all of life for.  I don’t know about that?  But let me ask another kind of question, actually two questions.

1.  Suppose that you can and do actually touch, know, experience this reality.  Let’s tie these reality-episodes to what your life is all about.  How does it make any difference?  For the vast majority of time spent in life you are exposed to:

  • Thoughts.  Do they change when you have touched this reality?
  • Feelings.  Are they different after or during this reality episode?
  • You commit to action or in-action.  How is the quality of these (in)actions any different now from before?
  • You are exposed to the consequences of your actions and inactions.  Are you not still suffering or enjoying the consequences of what you do or don’t do?

 

2.  Now suppose that you cannot know, and do not actually touch, know, or experience any reality.  Let’s tie these illusory-episodes of life to what your life is all about.  How does it make any difference?  For the vast majority of time spent in life you are exposed to:

  • Thoughts.  Do they change when you know that they are all an illusion?
  • Feelings.  Are they different after knowing they are all illusory?
  • You commit to action or in-action.  How is the quality of these (in)actions any different now from before?
  • You are exposed to the consequences of your actions and inactions.  Are you not still suffering or enjoying the consequences of what you do or don’t do?

I could guess that in the second case, knowing all life is an illusion would certainly have the tendency to make you less engaged, and to be more prone toward inaction.  If absolutely everything is unreal, what’s the point in getting involved?  This might save you from wasting time with fantasy fears, but just to throw all concern and all action out the window seems like an over-reaction.

 

3. Our original questioner has asserted that before any thought can happen, something real must have stimulated that thought.  I would call that an axiom, (unprovable practical assumption), instead of an assertion.

I also have an axiom.  It is that any deeper knowing of either a reality, or the absence of any reality would show up as a deeper ease and effectiveness in dealing with that reality, or lack of reality.  And that deeper ease would invariably reflect in the ease and effectiveness of all thoughts, feelings, actions, and in the consequences of any action or inaction taken, authored, or associated with that knower.

IS THAT THE WAY IT HAPPENS FOR YOU?

n/a
melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
perspectives

Richard:''Let me try to offer another perspective.''

Response:There are many perspectives from which no one experiences the apparent world. The perspective itself (knowledge of) is that which gives reality to things,objects,feelings,and experiences. When you don't translate your perspective in terms of your accumulated knowledge there is no reality there.

"no one'' is the ultimate subject therefore cannot be objectified... except in words like 'no one'... which is meaningless.

'Thinking' is a meaningful word. It points to a process involving the construction of thoughts that are experienced as an internal voice expressing ideas as words.

All these words are about the meaning of thoughts and thinking. They can be understood. There is no difference between thinking and knowing but this is just a story.

There really are no such things as thoughts or processes called thinking and knowing... just subtle sounds and meaning.

Knowing is cognising meaning as it arises.

__________

Richard: ''Clearly the questioner wants confirmation that he can, (and indeed he does) somehow touch something that he calls reality.''

Response:No one formulates the question and no one answers. So the answer is already in the question. There cannot be a question unless there is an answer. Asking a question when you already have the answer is wanting to know what cannot be known - endless answers will appear to the same one question as long as the question is there. The reason the question is there is because you cannot find the answer. If you have the answer there would be no need for the question. Eventually there comes a realisation that no one formulates the question and no one answers.

The question you are asking is born out of the answer you already have which is knowledge.Knowledge is the only way to experience reality which is illusory.

From belief to clarity.

melanie's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 1 day ago. Offline
Joined: 05/19/2014
Posts:
You have no choices.

Richard: ''I could guess that in the second case, knowing all life is an illusion would certainly have the tendency to make you less engaged, and to be more prone toward inaction. If absolutely everything is unreal, what’s the point in getting involved? This might save you from wasting time with fantasy fears, but just to throw all concern and all action out the window seems like an over-reaction.''

______

Response: You have no choice to get involved - you are already involved as an automatic function of Life. When you need to pee, you go to the toilet, you do not have the luxury of choice in the matter. When you feel hungry, you eat, you have no choice but to feed the feeling of hunger - you can choose not to eat, but that chooser is illusory - the body will not care whether it gets food or not it will continue to function automatically - if the food supply is cut off permanently the body will automatically wither and die, you have no choice in that process either - you have to co-operate/participate in the laws set by nature, you have no independent choices of your own. When you call a choice your own you are creating the illusion there is a someone to have a choice- there is not.

Life does not care about your choices. So to think there is no point in getting involved in life is a choiceless choice - it only exists as an illusory idea.

____________

Richard: ''Our original questioner has asserted that before any thought can happen, something real must have stimulated that thought''

Response: The only stimulus available is that which appears external to you which is your reflection. Therefore the projection of an object stimulates the thought of that object - which in turn gives birth to a reality. Reality is born of this reflection which you call real when in fact it is a mirage and is your only experience.

From belief to clarity.

gachchy's picture
User offline. Last seen 2 weeks 5 days ago. Offline
Joined: 06/18/2014
Posts:
Hi Da!

You call something as real. Some other may call the same as Illusion. Every Reality seen at a subtler level becomes a different story without any end

Those who have attained/tasted a state wherein all duality vanish, they transcend both reality and illusion, and become/be 'I AM THAT'. They no more attach any importance to words, like, REALITY and ILLUSION. They don't grudge any more and say that Everything is REAL or ILLUSION. All polar opposites are tactical mechanisms meant for existence to thrive, flourish and evolve. Since, all polar opposites are equally mind driven, calling existence as REAL or ILLUSION, is merely a convenience of expression for our understanding purposes, which is an obvious necessity for our communication. They can also simply transcend all duality and stay there without any need for expressions. Call it REAL or ILLUSION, they accept both. Words make little difference for such a person. They are not vehement on words or ideas. Take a bit of clay and call it as God, Real or Illusion. They don't refute such ideas. Such persons are neither Theists nor Atheists.

Obviously there is Real as well as Illusion. They know it's all just in the Mind.

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Brother

I don't call something Real, I suggest that there is only the Real, not just a something that is Real. The only illusion I think happens is through the sensation of separate self, there are no illusions in Real Self. Thus, no illusions because ego (separate self) is nothing more than an activity, it is something one does to their self. It is like covering your own eyes and saying I can't see. That is an illusion.

Existence itself has no polar opposite. Real has no polar opposite. The words may not make a difference for the Realizer, but they are useful and need not be treated like meaning is meaningless.

The Realized take care that when they do speak that what is being said is not encouraging confusion and that one is taking care to express that which is Real in words that have meaning and can't be interpreted as anything anyone wants.

Thus, it does make sense for such a person to not fret over definitions, but that one does not just go along with any idea just because that one is not attached to any of them.

I don't accept any idea just to keep the crowd happy or not to offend.

In the end, we are here having conversations about nonduality. So, with meaning in our words, without just blending everything together, we discuss. Do I sound vehement about what I'm saying or that I just don't go along with any ole ideas?

I don't try to make everyone happy all the time. So, I don't just go with the crowd. If this indicates anything about me so be it. I am happy to discuss, but without meaning in our words we could be babbling incoherently and have the same kind of results.

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

gachchy's picture
User offline. Last seen 2 weeks 5 days ago. Offline
Joined: 06/18/2014
Posts:
Hi Da!

I appreciate your views. Your views are coherent, consistent and very fair about reality and truth. I have always held a very high opinion about you. I have always liked your cool temperament. My statement, "They are not vehement on words or ideas" is not at all meant towards you. I said it very generally. May be I could have avoided that statement. Somehow that statement crept out of my subconscious mind even without my knowledge.

I don't argue much. I am always after the opinion that Truth an be interpreted in 'n' number of ways, just as you look at a car from different view points, like from front, rear, side, top and bottom, it gives altogether dissimilar views even though the object is one and the same.

Keep smiling !!!! I Love you so much !!!!!

Mukti Da's picture
User offline. Last seen 1 year 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 01/19/2011
Posts:
Love!

I love you too so much brother! Always a joy to talk with you.

Namaste

- Jared

You Are Tacit.

HeartRealization.com

mtony502's picture
User offline. Last seen 3 days 14 hours ago. Offline
Joined: 02/07/2010
Posts:
Richard's axiom . . .

Richard: "3. Our original questioner asserted that before any thought can happen, something real must have stimulated that thought. I would call that an axiom, (unprovable practical assumption), instead of an assertion.

I also have an axiom. It is that any deeper knowing of either a reality, or the absence of any reality would show up as a deeper ease and effectiveness in dealing with that reality, or lack of reality. And that deeper ease would invariably reflect in the ease and effectiveness of all thoughts, feelings, actions, and in the consequences of any action or inaction taken, authored, or associated with that knower.

IS THAT THE WAY IT HAPPENS FOR YOU?"

Response: I find your axiom and query to be straightforward in guiding attention. I take it as an invitation not for more spiritual, philosophical, argumentative debate about what is or isn't real, illusory, knowable, etc . . . but as, amongst us fellow travelers, how is it happening for "you"? You're asking if interacting with life (being Tony, Jared, Melanie, Gachchy, etc) is somehow easier? Is there ease and effectiveness in "my" thinking, feelings, actions, and in the consequences of any action or inaction taken, authored, or associated with "my" knowing?

Hmmm . . . I don't typically think (anymore) in terms of actively pursuing specific outcomes, i.e., bliss, enlightenment, equanimity, . . . or self-inquire if being Tony is more or less difficult/easy. The fact is consciousness, awareness, self, reality, etc is however it is in the moment. But heeding the spirit of your query, and foregoing any spiritual ideology . . . my response is "yeah", it does seem easier being here.

Meaning, in part, I daily attend to how open-minded mind is, and notice when it isn't, when some habit, assumption or belief rears up. I notice how that habit, assumption or belief seems hardwired in my brain and how often (if not always) there's some associated "acting out" related to it. But not for very long, usually minutes. Meaning, the noticing (awareness, understanding, realization, etc) eases a sensory/emotional contraction and the irritation, anger, disappointment, confusion, embarrassment or whatever acting out is occurring is released. And sometimes, of course, I have to endure the sensory/emotional contractions beyond what I'd prefer and notice that even under these circumstances letting go happens by itself.

Because I've accumulated many experiences, habits, assumptions and beliefs during this limited bodily shelf-life, I daily employ a sort of existential catch-and-release practice. And as a consequence of this practice, I'm familiar with impermanence and notice, more and more as it were, the obvious . . . it all (the whole reality/illusion show) happens or doesn't happen now in mind.

Tony

YouTube Channel: Ordinary Consciousness
By: MTony502
http://www.youtube.com/user/Mtony502

Part of the Action

We remain committed to be on the forefront of what will support life, both in your family and on planet earth. 

 

My interaction with you is an Experiment to further enable this vision to be true, and up to the rhythm that you are a part of the action.  

 

Please contribute to make this vision real.  

With Heart Felt Thanks, Richard Miller.

  

 

Who's online

There are currently 0 users and 7 guests online.