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My experiences.. or the lack thereof
Personal experiences.. well what i can say is that i didn't really have one big bang in which everything became clear all of a sudden, nor did i have amazing mystical trips or other special effects.
Whatever it is that happened so far seems to be a gradual process, which seems to be mental for a big part. I love to meditate sometimes, and seem to loose my 'self' in it sometimes.. there can be moments of clarity, even some oneness, when what used to be a clear 'me' with a definite body and whatnot becomes just a cloud of consciousness without clear defined borders, so to speak.
While those are really nice experiences, they always wear off pretty fast once you move out of the meditation session, and soon 'real life' hits me in the face again.. lol. Still, at the same time, it's nice and handy to know what's happening in my mind... how it works and why it does the things it does. It's actually pretty interesting to look at hwo it works.. and how predictable it really is.
IOn the meanwhile i don't knwo what's next. Maybe that 'big bang' will come one day.. maybe it won't.. maybe it's not meant to happen, maybe all that will ever happen is happening already, and it doesn't matter one bit how that which i call 'I' handles it.
If I look at my self on the relative level there seems to be a gradual deepening going on. The more I am able to embrace everything, even the darkness (and also the not liking of the darkness is welcome! Everything!), the more I feel at rest in this life.
But if I´m honest there is still this subtle longing for a more permanent knowing. Not necessarily a big bang but some sort of clear irrevocable seeing that I cannot put in words. A resting point, i guess.
I have faith It will unfold itself more and more. There is no way back. I cannot believe in Santa Claus anymore. Who cannot believe in Santa anymore? :)
Hello Payt,
You are right in one of your "maybe", "maybe all that will ever happen is happening already".
Indeed, there is no big bang but there can be a clear recognition of what it already is the case, what it is always present and happening right now.
To recognize that and to not fall in the trap of getting and losing it, like when you move out of the meditation session, it is to see your own actual existence.
To see that you always know that you exist, this knowing is always with you, your own presence, the fact of your being.
This knowing is non-conceptual, it means that it is beyond the mind. Right now, do you need to think about it to know that you exist?
You don't need to do anything, just to notice what's always there. Stay with that, be familiar with that, this presence is what you are.
Start with the certainty of your actual existence, you can't deny your existence, to have a doubt about it require your being.
Appreciate the presence I am, you know that you are, how do you know that? Be clear with this presence and see that you are not separate from it, you are that!
Hope it helps.
Love
Thanks Ghebrey.. i love it when someone cuts to the chase in a few simple words. Maybe the problem is that it's really so obvious and easy that we overlook it all the time.. lol.
It really is just an observing of what's here and now, who or what is experiencing this moment.. and in that i can feel there's an unfathomable depth.. here and now really seems to have an infinity to it. How hard would it be to kindof jump into it, and be it?
Ghebrey: “You don't need to do anything, just to notice what's always there. Stay with that, be familiar with that, this presence is what you are.
To recognize that and to not fall in the trap of getting and losing it, like when you move out of the meditation session, it is to see your own actual existence”
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Hi Ghebrey,
Then to notice what is always here is an action, to “stay” or to “be aware” still a hidden effort to get somewhere this time by noticing timeless being . The “I” and then something separated as presence.. The “I” that says ah it is so simple how “I” could ever overlooked myself, that is the trap in getting or losing it.
I Am (minus I minus Am) As you say the clear recognition is possible but not for anyone as “I”.
Presence Awareness or whatever it is named can never be recognized or be seen. I KNOW or I AM; to be what you are you never can do anything. Who would be there to notice it; to “stay”: or “to try to be aware of consciousness ” or to see whatever it may named? The absence of “I” cannot guess or contemplate about how it would be to be not there as dream figure. The ice cube cannot recognize it is water. The ice cube is melting and it’s getting too hot.
Hi Menno.
You are right, everything is done by no one.
To say that "notice" or "stay" is an effort and require someone to do it so it is not true, this understanding is blocking the looking, the investigation.
It is like jumping into the end game like I heard from John Wheeler. You heard somewhere that there is nobody, so with that understanding you reject all effort or investigation, the problem with that is it is not resolving the suffering.
The truth is the "absence of I" can do the investigation, it is done by no one, so do it and see that the seeker is just imagination and look first for this presence that you are and you are done!
Love
Hi Ghebrey,
Nice to read your comment, at least some disagreement that is great. You are right I was to jumpy and I forgot the origin poster Payt. For there is no truth in what I say or you say. It's merely a facet of the same diamond. I don’t know what is true or not. It is not about being right or wrong (quote: “but thinking makes it so”).
I only can speak about myself and what was/is true then and there in the story as seeker. The seeker in search for the writer. Or Lucky Luke trying to shoot it's own shadow. In the investigation process the the trick of the tail.
The inquiry of these thoughts and my “I’s ”; ”I” as thinker, feeler, seeker, body, dreamer, “I” and my personal story etc.. My inquiry and step by step by how this search seems to happen. I’m not talking about John Wheeler I don’t know him (I am used to Dutch as my home language but still doing well I guess) so it depends to who he had said that remark and in which situation. Answers of speakers are often related to a certain question and person and not general applicable.
Your remark about “the seeker is imagery” and “look first for this presence that you are and you are done!” is a well-known pronouncement.
I remember it of meetings but always in a certain consecution a certain order, it was said as I remember it with another intention for other people different questions and roles. So what may occur true for one is not true for another.
I only can speak purely from my investigation in the story of the seeker. So for me in a role such as "me the seeker" it is true that "to notice awareness" or "to stay in presence" is a mind trick. So let alone to sit and to “do” the investigation. Just to recognize the tricks of the ego and thinking. As seeker I cannot "see" that this "i" is imaginary also that is still part of a story. Suffering or happiness both forms of the same gold.
All this point to surrender, not as any effort or action one can intentionally do or plan. Surrender to what I am. As seeker I will never will be able to find the absence in the thinking or by using any words or structures. It is much more simple by the heart then all these words. Words and thoughts are good for daily life how to find your way in a city or go to the bakery.
Yours in him
Menno,
That's true, we are using words and they are concepts, all concepts are false.
"Notice" is not a mind trick, the investigation is not done by the mind, it has nothing to do with it, it is easily beyond the mind.
I said "easily" because, we all know our own presence and this knowing is beyond the mind. Just notice that.
Maybe we don't see the word investigation in the same way, it is just the recognition of your true nature and from that you see if any ideas, doubts and questions remaining are true in the light of our experience.
I don't know what surrender means, we just need a direct looking.
Suffering is needless, it is rooted in the belief of an entity, just a thought.
"As seeker I cannot "see" that this "i" is imaginary also that is still part of a story."
Yes, you are in trouble with that if you don't have a sense of what you truly are.
"So what may occur true for one is not true for another."
In what I see, we all experience the same thing, it is the same mechanism of suffering, all problems are conceptual for everyone.
"Words and thoughts are good for daily life how to find your way in a city or go to the bakery."
They are also very useful as pointers in non-duality, that's the only way to communicate. For me, some clear pointers are doing a great job, then we can forget them, they are useful only temporarily.
Coming from the perspective of the mind, many things appear to be necessary.
Starting from the fact of your own being, nothing is necessary.
Love
Hi Ghebrey,
Our concept “investigation” means something different, no problem. For me investigation of the ‘I’s was done by use of my mind. Using a concept by recognition or knowing. By use of thoughts, emotions, relations, work and trying to find happiness in experiences. Pointers in the story of life towards not a thing.
People are used to make up a rules, setting and fixed pointers. It all depends really on the circumstance and person. During the meetings u see there is a kind of build up certain visitors are asking the same question but receive a totally different answer. And the known speakers were able to switch like a chameleon. Then there was the translation problems and then books were published about how things should be explained. So I have my doubts about truth being expressed in words, especially with the western non-duality shuffle of the last 3 decades. I don’t like the depersonalized writings or words because nowadays it seems to be a non-dual lingual robotic thingy. Useful for me was the silence and 1to1 contact and having fun.
Yes, words can be very useful as pointers to yourself. But also in our dreams pointers (sometimes the most funny) can happen and non wordily communication is there.
We all experience other things in our story. Everybody has her or his unique flavor. Love
I love those paradoxes.. lol..
Here we are being all spiritual and trying to do the undoable. There's nothing we can do to 'get' it, since we're already it.. But that's the hardest thing of all.. not being able to 'do' anything. Isn't 'not doing' anything doing something too? lol.. i gues i understand why so many people find what they're looking for when they give up the search... but that too can be a trap if it's something the mind tries to 'get' it, eh?
"You can either be the sugar, or taste the sugar." Ramakrishna
This seems like an actual freedom of choice to me!
hmm i suspect that we ARE the sugar AND we can taste it. Even the 'who' is 'the One', in the end
Who? We can think we do what we want but we can never want what we want.
Integrality exists as (because of) you are there first.
If you ARE the sugar, there is no "who". If you taste the sugar there is not only a "who", but also a "what" and with that a "where", a "when", a "how" and a "why". How beautiful and exciting! The sheer power of shakti....
While those are really nice experiences, they always wear off pretty fast once you move out of the meditation session, and soon 'real life' hits me in the face again
It's hard to hold onto the moment