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Seekers Can Be a Dreary Lot
Some people talk and some don't. I suppose you have to honor that. But it must also signify something? Lately we are getting so few comments, even though a lot of new content is going up. If you start to notice the messages that repeat in that content, we talk more and more about participation, which seems to have had a reverse effect.
I see the on-line statistics from the back end, and the "talk rate" is incredibly low, only a few out of each thousand. You all must truly believe in your personal drama. What can I say? Get retired and have some fun out of life.
They say you can catch more flies with honey than with admonitions or a kick in the pants. But I am modeling a tremendous freedom that I easily get out of this website. I know that you can get it too. Quit playing your cards so incredibly close to your chest. Come and really join the party of life!
NOTHING
as the mind becomes quiet, the pull to comment lessens
part of the 'seeker's practice'...so to speak (as it occurs naturally, in the awakening process)... is an inner silencing of the mental noise by ceasing to project "too many" thoughts/concepts outward
the realization that thoughts are just thoughts, in practice, creates non-verbal communication
even on the internet...:D
To get things in perspective. The rate of members being active on this forum is pretty much the average of what you can expect on any forum. On a any given forum the percentage of users that are active is usually between 1 and 2 percent (absolute max!.) So on a forum that has 10.000 members, usually there will be about about 100 members that actively participate. Not on any moment. But in 24 hours there will have been about a 100 members who have posted something.
So on a forum with 900 members this will be about 9 people.
So perhaps this forum is a little bit below that 1 percent mark. But not dramatically.
Richard I assume that you agree that the usability of this forum is dreary also. It´s a great initiative but we cannot pretend that a topic like this ( http://www.nevernothere.com/forum/self-realization-and-whole-bodily-awak... ) for example is readable for someone who finds this site via google (and that is the way how most forums get new members.) It´s only readable for the few people who actively participate in the discussion. This is due to the lack of a quote function, and lack of structure. If you ever want to attract more active users the forum should be more standardized. The way I understand it there are free of cost forum formats out there.
You feel that people should be more open about themselves. I appreciate that, but I think it is also worth mentioning that one of the attractive sides of the internet is that you can play with identities. I was once on a site where they didn´t want to reply to my questions anymore because I hadn´t introduced myself in the introduction page. Well, that really sucked - one active member less. So your request that people should place a photo of themselves, to me feels a bit out of sync with the attractive side of the internet in which anonymity provides people with the freedom to play with ideas and identities. At the moment I do happen to have a vague avatar-picture of myself, and I´m wondering if my awareness of this fact makes my posts less personal. Sometimes people get more personal if they know they´re anonymous.
Further, there are a lot of spirituality forums out there, and I assume that on these forums there already is some space for Non-Duality. So perhaps for a lot of people they don´t feel like participating on a forum that´s only about Non-Duality. Of course there is also a Duality section, but the main focus of this site seems to be that of Non-Duality, with Duality on the side.
And maybe worth mentioning is that most forums also have a sort of hangout-section in which members can post stuff that is totally unrelated to the rest of the forum. Topics can range from ´post your favorite movie´ to ´what did you dream last night?´ etc...
Unfortunately, Richard, most 'talking' is self doing personhood, often with no awareness that's what fills right now up to the brim. I agree, no talking won't work because at least some talking might lead to some talking outside of the fiction people are talking. This often involves a lot of twiddling of thumbs, listening to a hint of something interesting just on the other side of amnesia, where the good stuff resides, often in silence. Communication above the line (amnesia) isn't communication, just the same old song and dance, which gives time a job. When someone drops below the line, the dim outline of communication reluctantly shows up, and the color of the room changes, and 'listening' suddenly makes sense. In a flash, we are "all ears," literally, ready to make some concession to truth, which is what there is to talk about, right? Time displays the ratio of babble to 'real talking,' and when it begins, time disappears. A "good talk" is a wonderful thing because the fiction the self is real goes on hiatus, at least for a few minutes.
It's true that commentators do tend to talk at each other, as opposed to having some sort of meaningful dialogue, or discourse, but that is surely not unique to this board. Check out the comments section of any conventional media outlet's website, and there are literally thousands of comments on the news stories of the day, or politics, or last night's game, or the latest stock market seesaw, or the newest Hollywood ego-trip fiasco, etc, etc. The vast majority of which are people talking at each other, just reinforcing their well-entrenched positions, beliefs and platitudes (often with a shocking lack of literacy), and seldom do you see any really well thought out monologues -- never mind dialogues -- going beyond the usual twitter limitations. And yet that doesn't stop any of them from shooting off at the mouth, over, and over again, ad nauseam. And it is almost exclusively ego-driven.
I'm inclined to think that the lack of commentary here does have something to do with the nature of so-called seekers, but it may not be so much that they're "dreary." Rather it may just be that they tend to be reserved, contemplative, and introspective types, who are more interested in exploring and learning from the content, as opposed to commenting on it, or just spewing opinions for the sake of self-congratulation and ego gratification.
In any case Richard, I hope you realize how much we all appreciate your efforts -- whether we comment or not. Sites like this are rare out there in a cyberspace still largely dominated by the cultural status quo, which has a vested interest in suppressing anything that it views as a threat to the ego-bound worldview upon which it feeds and depends for its very survival.
The problem here is you got a forum full of people who are here to re-enforce a sense of self by just talking AT rather than to people.
There are notable exceptions.
But for the most case that's what's goin on.
Which is a shame because this could be a battle ground on which the war upon the dream state is won en masse
Sheesh! I go away for a short vacation and come back to controversy: "To comment or not to comment? That is the question."
Once again, I'm struck by the irony of having a site where commentators 'talk' about that which can't be put into words. I too sometimes have that bewildered feeling, after having written a poem, or rambled on and on about some 'self'-centered story or topic, reflecting back in retrospect, and thinking: "What the heck am I going on about?"
And yet, I believe that one of the qualities that make us uniquely human is our ability to create and express complex ideas. Indeed, I believe that our entire reality, that is the world of opposites and change (and yes that would include the concept of duality vs. non-duality) is essentially constructed of language, beliefs and ideas -- in other words imagination. Imagination, and the communication of our imaginings, is a natural function of being alive. Can anyone 'imagine' a world without it? And even though ultimately pure unconditioned consciousness exists prior to language, beliefs and ideas, the human expression of this consciousness, i.e. the mind, and its imperative to create 'reality,' is as natural and fundamental to our human existence, as is possessing two legs with which to walk, or two eyes with which to see, or two ears with which to hear, and so on.
So to deny our own minds, and this unique human ability to imagine and communicate the complex, diverse and novel ideas, by which we create our reality, seems to me to be like denying our ability to walk. And so why should so-called 'awakening,' as a natural part of being human, necessarily preclude something as natural as the human mind, and its need to communicate -- even if we are creating 'imagined' problems/questions, and coming up with 'imagined' solutions, in this 'imagined' existence.
I, for one, literally can't 'imagine' any other existence. So comment and talk and imagine to your heart's content, I say. It's what makes us human, after all.
Well, at least this thread got a lot of replies :) I guess we can call that progress eh?
Perhaps there are a few things one can do to at least make it more inviting to post comments. It could be something as simple as making the site look a bit more pretty and give it a clearer layout. For example, have a look at this site: http://batgap.com/. I think it looks really neat and clean, and when you go to the comments section, you immedeately understand what's going on. Oldest comment on top, and newer as you go down.. i think that's the most logical way to go about it.
If i may highlight another point.. maybe i'm a simpleton Richard, but sometimes i have to read what you're writing a couple of times before i fully comprehend what you're saying.. and sometimes i feel that maybe you could express yourself a little umm.. well perhaps less intellectual or something. Maybe the fact that English isn't my native language is a factor here, but i think that if you want to invite discussion, clarity helps a lot.
Anyway.. i really do enjoy this site a lot, so i hope you keep up the good work :)
love your post especially the part about http://batgap.com/. - a brilliant site run by a brilliant man: Rick Archer.
"sometimes i have to read what you're writing a couple of times before i fully comprehend what you're saying. ..but i think that if you want to invite discussion, clarity helps a lot."
I agree - keep it simple.
Dear Richard
I am so sorry for your disappointment and I understand how you feel since for quite a while I`ve also been noticing the slender participation on the site and I feel really sad at it.
Maybe I don`t feel so "gilty" myself since I am sending in comments now and then, but actually I should. For instance I know I am a very poor topic writer and I wished I`d be more skilfull at that. Why is it so - I very much agree with Michiel`s comment here below and I`ll put a comment on that too.
This site is among the best things I know right now. There isn`t such a place anywhere alse as far as I know. Since I found it I`ve been visiting it every day except when I don`t have access to the computer.I`ve followed you on your path always feeling amazed at your openness, warmth, sincerity, energy, humor and I could go on adding much more.
All the teachers that have shown up so far and all the conversations have been not only interesting and enjoyalbe but they even have had an enormous importance for my quest.
But - and I said this somwhere before, I am much more attuned to your wisdom and I find most often myself listening more to your comments then to your interlocutors.
And there is more:
The openness this site is offering to us is unik. If we aren`t able to make good use of it maybe we aren`t either able to appreciate it fully.
This website allows for free polls...
maybe we can ask people why they don't want to share. I can think of some possible reasons:
- I'm lazy
- I don't want to get cought up in a story
- I'm introverted because of the spiritual search
- I can't call in anymore to the webcasts
- I don't think my comments are relevant
- I already know everything and I don't need to talk about it
- Nothing has any meaning, so sharing also isn't meaningful
- I think this stuff isn't socially acceptable
- etc.
Hi Michiel!
I`ve just posted my comment to Richadr and it worked. I don`t know why I must fill in the CAPTCHA so often, amybe it is also my fault, as you said.
I agree with you on all your points, every one is possible.For me it is mostly that I don`t feel my comments are so relevant, so I am one of those.
Somehow I wished more people answered to this topic, then one could find out.
I also miss the call in webcasts, but at the same time during those shows I had the same feeling of resistence from people to call in. People are maybe shy and I understand being one of those myself.
I also made some suggestions to have teachers discussions on the site, but at the same time I also notice that spiritual teachers are not open for that at all.
As for your last point, if it is true it would be quite inconceivable why they would stay and not just leave.
I take the opportunity to thank you for informing about Integral Life. I`ve visited the site recently and well... I really don`t know. As I told Richard on my comment above, I am not so good at writing topics, but I think I should try at least for this subject. We`ll see...
Hey Anna,
If you would really like to have a good discussion between teachers you should invite teachers from different countries. Having followed a lot of them, I think a lot of the differences are cultural. To make some generalizations: in the Netherlands, where I live, a lot of satsang teachers are almost teaching like a class. Then, in England, satsang is also big, and they are all not so much teaching, but they are saying that there is nothing to learn or to do. They are almost saying 'don't come to my meeting'.
Anyway don't know if this makes sense but ultimately the are saying the same thing, but from a different angle.
Well, this Canela here will be offering Satsang in London, and I totally invite everyone to come to the meeting!! Yes, nothing to learn, nothing to do, AND there is this so lovely human that continues to appear in the nothingness as you.
People who point out What Is (you say 'teachers') hold an energetic space where Self can just fall in with its Self...this is truly falling in Love. At least in my own personal direct experiencing happening. I have found that there is a respect for a person's space, not to be pointing on top of pointing. (teaching on top of teaching) That said, there will be a large amount of pointers to What Is, perhaps holding discussions together - the format has not been decided yet - at 'The Gathering' in the summer of 2012. http://zoxon.com/ref/10770/your-spiritual-hosts.html
I could suggest this as a possibility if there is interest to the organizers?
What was found in my own direct experience of dialog between pointer outers (teachers) is delightful enjoyment with Pamela Wilson; intense gratitude with Gangaji; heart crushing love with Adyashanti; calm contentment and wonder with Kyle Hoobin; joyful mirth with dear Isaac Shapiro. The words did not show up in a way that made any sense at all to anyone else other than ourselves. This was just in 'meeting' however, so maybe with the idea of 'discussion' present, something else would happen.
Sharingly, with love,
Canela
Yes, it makes sense and ultimately not only the teachers but everybody else discussing such matter are saying the same thing, but the different angles are just my point. Besides, it isn`t true only speaking of spiritual matter, but in all matters (science, philosophy, religion etc.).
Take for instance Buddhism.The different angles are the different schools or orientations (Mahayana vs Theravada, nihilists vs reificationists etc.).
For a "student" or a seeker could questions of this kind be very interesting to listen to.
And Maharshi`s inquiry approach isn`t the only advaita.Ultimately, everything is advaita.
But if you only listen to teachers coming from the same orientation maybe you miss other interesting perspectives.
What you said about teachers in different countries is interesting.I wouldn`t mind to go to satsangs in Netherlands. I`d just listen and then go home or to other "gurus" if there were some. As for England if there isn`t something to teach or to do,then it would be better if everybody stayed at home or that the teacher didn`t show up at all.
The basic question is:
Do we want to communicate with people or stay in mystical contemplation?
Yes, it makes sense and ultimately not only the teachers but everybody else discussing such matter are saying the same thing, but the different angles are just my point. Besides, it isn`t true only speaking of spiritual matter, but in all matters (science, philosophy, religion etc.).
Take for instance Buddhism.The different angles are the different schools or orientations (Mahayana vs Theravada, nihilists vs reificationists etc.).
For a "student" or a seeker could questions of this kind be very interesting to listen to.
And Maharshi`s inquiry approach isn`t the only advaita.Ultimately, everything is advaita.
But if you only listen to teachers coming from the same orientation maybe you miss other interesting perspectives.
What you said about teachers in different countries is interesting.I wouldn`t mind to go to satsangs in Netherlands. I`d just listen and then go home or to other "gurus" if there were some. As for England if there isn`t something to teach or to do,then it would be better if everybody stayed at home or that the teacher didn`t show up at all.
The basic question is:
Do we want to communicate with people or stay in mystical contemplation?
Obviously I`ll never learn...
A site like this could do without captcha. And (I don´t like to be ´grouchy smurf´ so this is the last time I will mention it) the structure is not that clear for a newcomer who, for example, came here via google. It´s not that easy to read threads here. Stumbling upon forum-threads through google is the way most forums get new members.
On topic.
I wonder if the the subject matter also has something to do with it. Perhaps it doesn´t lend itself so well for short replies. Most people who have forum-experience are not used to writing down more than 3 sentences or so. And if you read a topic on this site you really have to use your brain - at least I do.
Which brings me to the next point. I don´t read that much on this site, to be honest. It sometimes happens that I have a certain question(sort of) within me, and one way of gaining more insight is by writing about it. And I like to have a critical ´audience´ that responds, so then it starts to flow more easily. But if I wouldn´t have those questions, would I still write on a forum like this? I think not, but I´m not sure.
I can also imagine that a lot of people don´t like the idea that they can be held responsible for the things they write. For example, I probably don´t agree with everything I have written on here.
The Arjen on here is not the Arjen in real life, although there are a lot of overlaps. I think we have a lot in common. We should meet sometime. :)
Hi Michiel!
I`ve just posted my comment to Richadr and it worked. I don`t know why I must fill in the CAPTCHA so often, amybe it is also my fault, as you said.
I agree with you on all your points, every one is possible.For me it is mostly that I don`t feel my comments are so relevant, so I am one of those.
Somehow I wished more people answered to this topic, then one could find out.
I also miss the call in webcasts, but at the same time during those shows I had the same feeling of resistence from people to call in. People are maybe shy and I understand being one of those myself.
I also made some suggestions to have teachers discussions on the site, but at the same time I also notice that spiritual teachers are not open for that at all.
As for your last point, if it is true it would be quite inconceivable why they would stay and not just leave.
I take the opportunity to thank you for informing about Integral Life. I`ve visited the site recently and well... I really don`t know. As I told Richard on my comment above, I am not so good at writing topics, but I think I should try at least for this subject. We`ll see...
Sorry, obviously my fault, double klick again!
Wow! There are some interesting perspectives here.
I'm almost getting the impression that not talking is being perceived as being selfish and/or less participatory in life.
As an occasional nontalker (it appears and dis-appears, like all appearances), I have to say that not talking has its unique benefits.
One of which is... you're not storytelling to a world full of story tellers.
When did being temporarily drama-free get such a bad rap?
P.S. to Richard: I wonder if there is a correlation between the subsiding of talk time here and the exclusion of call-ins in your video interviews. Did people talk more here during the time that people were allowed to call in, via Skype, and participate in your interviews? Just curious.
Hi Peter
I hear what you are saying that sometimes you talk and sometimes you dont and that there is a preference here which states that not talking is a deliberate and selfish non-participatory stance.
You say:
"One of which is... you're not storytelling to a world full of story tellers.
When did being temporarily drama-free get such a bad rap?"
There is an assumption here however, which is, that not communicating on this forum is a way of not adding a personal, illusory story. It could also imply that folk are so caught up in the whirl of their lives and their personal stories, their thought comments, to actually type them out.
However, what may be useful is to ask folk why they generally choose not to communicate through the written word. Do they find this sight and its content actually interesting enough to even want to communicate, etc?
Without the question being answered all we can surmise are our own ideas as to what is happening which may have no correlation in actuality.
"Do they find this sight and its content actually interesting enough to even want to communicate, etc?"
Now this is a particularly interesting question. Thanks for raising it.
It implies that if something is interesting enough, you'd want to communicate.
There is a place, however, where you can be interested in that which you are placing your attention on... yet feel no urge to comment on it.
And listening, sometimes, is deeper when talking doesn't accompany it to the dance floor.
It's very natural for talkers (and I think Richard has referred himself to being one on several occasions) to want talk-back. That's their currency for sharing.
But, odd as it may sound, listening can also be a vehicle for sharing. And listening often begets listening in return.
I understand your frustration, Richard. Personaly, i really do appreciate this website and the gazillions of interviews and video's that you seem to be able to find the time for to conduct and provide to us free of charge.
I'm deeply appreciative, and i think i speak for many people when i say so. Maybe that appreciation should be expressed a bit more ofthen though.
It'd be more fun if people would just exchange ideas a bit more. Maybe it's just a matter of time before the whole thing really takes off
Hopefully the idea that lots of people are actually enjoying the gifts of this website will provide some comfort, and i can only see it becoming more and more :)
I agree to you people, this so-called illusion will be much more fun if we communicate, even if it's plain non-sense like an april 2nd fool's joke or something ;-)
BTW I just had some problems completing CAPTCHA but it could be a fault of my own
Interesting indeed. I have also problem with CAPTHA. It happened me often before. I`ve just tried to sent a comment to Richard on this topic and wanted also reply on your comment, but now it`s gone and I must try to write it again!
Its just bone-idle laziness! :-)
These are the days when it is far easier than ever to really reach out and communicate and the ego says: "NO! I'll keep it all to myself or share it with those special relationships of mine. That way I get to keep safe and confined. I'll stay in the trenches."
There is a safety in non-communication. One cannot be challenged there. Not that one necessarily needs to be challenged or to challenge. However, there is a need for human beings to actually open up and talk with each other and this opening up and talking can be a way through the illusion of separation. However, the part of us that is the deceptive ego wants to remain separate and feels completely justified in its non-communicative, arms folded stance.
Lets see the flowering that we all like to talk about. It is spring after all
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