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SUFFERING
“Suffering” is an interesting understanding of life. We usually equate suffering with pain and misery, but it is more than just that. Suffering is principally based on sentient being or sentiency. If we contemplate our own individual sentiency, our own experience, that we have at this very moment, we connect to essence.
There are myriad of sentient beings constituting other sentient beings: cells, organs, bodies, etc. Sentiency is permeating life as intelligence. On account of this aspect of intelligence we are able to suffer, mysterious it may be. That is the root understanding of DUALITY. Duality is not the sense of separation or ego-claim, but sentiency, the very essence of life, experience, and knowledge.
Suffering and pain, just like enjoyment and happiness are a collateral of soul development. When we are identified with the soul rather than with our personality, we will live in a state of continuous serenity and joy, while we are suffering pain and pleasure, happiness and sadness.
The important point to consider in this is self-awareness, or LOGOS, the ability to think and speak. Based on that we have the capacity to create unnecessary suffering for ourselves, others, and nature. Necessary suffering is a collateral of soul development or the mastery of energy. Unnecessary suffering is not. Unnecessary suffering keeps us in bondage to the three lower worlds for no good reason, but ignorance and desperation. You are account-able.
Soul development and mastery of energy happen as the polarity of 'Agency and Communion'. Agency: We are actors and decision makers, have will and intention, and we can think. All of these are agency. Communion: We are completely dependent on existence and life, our essence, the universe, in short: DIVINITY.
Let us contemplate ‘Integration’ and ‘necessary suffering’ in terms of non-duality.
There has not been one enlightened master anywhere in this world or in other worlds, who does not understand absolutely the necessary suffering and account-ability of self-awareness, and what it means.
Marcus: "This is how life has meant it to be, to make the illusory world appear as real to the illusory ego."
Answer: Oh really? "Life" has intelligent intentions? It is all just a trick of "life"? Does "life" have a specific reason for "meaning things to be that way" according to Marcus?
"Life" seems to be everything that "mind" is not? Good thinking.
By the way, please let us not speculate, whether 'Andreas' has met Enlightened Masters or not - it is not up to 'Marcus' to judge that. The last one I have met is your own Dr., my friend? You have no CLUE, obviously!
Andreas: Answer: Oh really? "Life" has intelligent intentions?
Response: Life does not have intentions, its just a way of speaking for you to understand the intelligence of life to deceive the illusory ego. No purpose, of course!
Andreas: By the way, please let us not speculate, whether 'Andreas' has met Enlightened Masters or not - it is not up to 'Marcus' to judge that. The last one I have met is your own Dr., my friend? You have no CLUE, obviously!
Response: As long as there is an "I" which believes to have met an enlightened master - the understanding is not clear. You do not meet a master, the understanding happens (or not) that there has never been a separation in life as a reality.
There is no "I" that "beliefs" to have met a master. It is all just a projection of the mind of Marcus with the intention of....
Mastery is the key however, in the meantime.
Andreas: Mastery is the key however, in the meantime.
Response: So the mind assumes to be the master himself. Understanding that man is not the doer is real mastery.
Marcus: "So the mind assumes to be the master himself. Understanding that man is not the doer is real mastery."
Response: That has been the continuous and ignorant projection of AAU so far, without any understanding whatsoever beyond the Hindu Bias of "illusion"....
Andreas: That has been the continuous and ignorant projection of AAU so far, without any understanding whatsoever beyond the Hindu Bias of "illusion"....
Response: It is Andreas who believes to "think out of light" and who calls it "mastery", not AAU.
AAU believes that Andreas "believes" to think "out of light". True thinking creates out of light. No additional belief is necessary.
All knowledge originates in innocence, not knowing that is ignorance. No illusion is needed, but account-ability.
Andreas: AAU believes that Andreas "believes" to think "out of light". True thinking creates out of light. No additional belief is necessary.
Response: Light does not create but reflect, meaning: the world is not a creation of real entities but a reflection of illusory thoughts. Therefore it is a belief to think that light creates and in addition to assume that man is the one who creates.
I never once said anywhere that Light creates. Where did you get that from? I don't think light creates. I do think that light is intelligent though.
'Thinking creates out of light' is about integration and account-ability, not about how everything is a mechanized "illusion", a movie projected on the screen of life.
It is based on the acceptance that all is Thinking to begin with - LOGOS. Outside of LOGOS humanity does not exist. No words, no concepts, no reflection as sound, no light to understand. No absolute understanding whatsoever. Logos thinks cosmos out of light. This is creative in nature. Wo/man is essentially involved with this creativity, and therefore create their own world in contrast to cosmos. This is based on the mystery of self-awareness.
The ONE engages as time - Unity in Diversity. Wo/man can be account-able, if s/he chooses to be. One important step is to understand the Absolute of course, the other is to understand the process of integration as the 'Area of Principle'.
A very interesting and important topic, Andreas.
First about Agency and Communiion:
It is in the everyday life a way of functioning of the whole world, which we`ve gotten when created, so it isn`t something that we have chosen ourselves.
Being an agent is to me always a physic, psychic, intellectiual or emotional reaction of a conditioned body-mind organism to something else and the way of acting is dipending on unconscious conditions.
Besides, I wonder if there exists Agency outside of Communion at all. Since everything is dipending on each other, how can we act as "individuals"?
Second about suffering;:
Maybe I understand what you mean by "necessary and unnecessary", I am not sure.
The suffering of the body-mind which inflicts it on itself and others could be called "unnecessary"?
The suffering of the soul, i.e. the suffering of being separated from God and his creation, could be "necessary" for the developement of our soul?
But even the suffering of the body mind can be developing yet it doesn`t depend on our choices but on how conditioned we are.
But since I don`t believe we are true, indipending agents I think that both kind of suffering just ARE as they are, necessary and conditioned, a mysterious functioning of the creation.
The capacity to create 'world' is essentially human - no conditioning, just account-ability. All behaviorism and belief in conditioning is part of the mechanization concept, which has been CREATED to explain the world (mind) in terms of an externalized machinery. Descartes and others are exponents of this nonsense.
For better or for worse, Anna, as a human being you are part of this world creation. There is no escaping that - not even in non-duality.
The creation of the concept of "illusion" or "maya" as some kind of veiling power of sound and reflection is THINKING my dear Anna.
'Non-Duality' is a creation of THINKING, otherwise it is MYSTERY. There are no two ways about that, if we are honest. Then comes the account-ability of the thinker. You could compare humanity to one gigantic nervous system. Individual cells come and go, but are still part of the intelligent purpose of the ONE engaging as time over time, mysterious it may be.
Humanity, you and me, creates world every moment. What kind of world is it? Re-flection, con-science: Oops, a world of mechanization and conditioning? Really? Skinner and Pavlov are right? The only hope is to discard it all as - existentialism, or the Hindu Bias of "illusion" ?
With the denial of thinking "illusion" starts, with the true limits of thinking "mystery" begins. Let us not forget that the highest mysteries are not to be had by wisdom, but by love. Love knows no illusion, neither does wisdom actually. Wisdom only knows foolishness.
Thank you for your answer, Andreas.
Pity that the topic of suffering gets lost in the discussion. It is as old as the human kind so I don`t mean that we can say something new about it, but we keep on trying since nobody can have the last word about this subject.
In Christianity the theodice problem is solved with different artificial reasoning, in non-duality, I don`t know... certainly it isn`t clear how necesssary or unnecessary suffering can make it clearer.
I can`t even say that I have an other suggestion myself, other than that I see both the suffering of nature and man (earthquakes as well as wars) beeing one and the same phenomenon,myisterious as everything else.
Actually existencialists had greater integrity facing the problem of beeing "thrown into the world".Then each of them solved it in his own personal way.
So you really don`t need to remind me being as a human part of the creation whether I like it or not. Nobody asked me if I wanted to come. If they did, I probabily answered "No".
Pity that nobody asked me now if I want to suffer or not, so I have to do my best to handle that too.
But I would really love if someone asked me if I`d like to be enlighten.Then I`d certainly answered "Yes" getting at the same time a little accountability too.
When my mom took me to task on something, my favorite reply was: "I did not want to be here, it all is your fault, you brought me into this world" (And I meant it!)
All of this dis-empowerment or existential helplessness (thrownness) of the individual is based on the loss of the soul as an understanding and mastery in our individual, daily lives.
This loss has a long history of over 2000 years in the Western culture. Wisdompoint calls it the 'Politics of the Soul', because it is about power, and how we have become manipulated by a certain cognitive history.
India has suffered a similar fate of dis-empowerment with the wrong understanding of "illusion".
In any case, the result of it is that we are cut off, feel powerless, dejected and all together disconnected from life.
The soul is the 'animating principle', not as in blind 'activity', but as in 'essence' and intelligence. Enlightenment is actually a matter of the soul. Without the soul, no enlightenment. Beyond the soul - non-duality...
As for the gigantic nervus system with cells that came and go, if I as a cell among other cells decided to get enlightened, it depends on the play of the web-structure of all the other cells, both the present and the past ones if I can make it or not. So I see my choice as highly conditioned in any case.
And seeing that maybe I can get out of my cell-centricity.
"Necessary suffering is a collateral of soul development or the mastery of energy."
I continue to be befuddled by this peculiar notion of "necessary suffering".
It's certainly one of the attributes of an anthropomorphic god like the Judaic-Christian one.
That's why he created an after-life hell, no doubt. Being a subscriber to necessary suffering as well.
So does this mean that you may be inclined to not help a drunken, homeless beggar who comes to you for financial assistance?
He needs to necessarily suffer for his soul's development?
On behalf of the soul it is better to err on the side of "tough love" rather than "idiot compassion".
You know for yourself exactly what is unnecessary suffering, the rest is necessary suffering. This is the essence of con-science. The ONE engages as time, as ears, eyes, perception, awareness, doing, thinking, happening: agency-communion, self-world, mysterious it may be.
The distinction is account-ability of course, on the basis of self-awareness. It is every-ONE's choice of engagement. That is where reality starts.
Wow! Tough love in place of idiot compassion, eh?
That's very Judeo-Christian-god-like of you.
You and Yahwah would probably enjoy breaking bread with each other.
Are we having "Judeo-Christian" hang ups that keep us from understanding the nature of suffering?
Between the Hindu Bias of "illusion" and the Judeo-Christian Bias of "suffering" - the wisdompoint is really fucked?
SUFFERING IS BASED ON SENTIENCY, not on Judeo-Christian politics of manipulating the soul.
"Are we having "Judeo-Christian" hang ups that keep us from understanding the nature of suffering?"
No J-C hang-ups here. Just an acknowledgment that this view of yours...
"On behalf of the soul it is better to err on the side of "tough love" rather than "idiot compassion"...
is shared by the Judeo-Christian Yaweh who also shares your belief in "tough love" over "idiotic compassion".
"Necessary suffering" as well.
As do many military leaders, police officers, and authoritarian political leaders.
The "Will to Power" of Nietzsche is the ultimate recognition of the judeo-christian value system and its Platonic foundation.
This is of course NOT the wisdompoint. Integration is the wisdompoint. Virtue is wisdompoint. The soul does not need indulgence. It needs enlightenment, and - dare I say it in this circle of exquisite non-dualistic 'illusionists'? The soul needs mastery.
Mastery takes 'tough love', not 'idiot compassion'.
Andreas: “Suffering” is an interesting understanding of life.
Response: To understand suffering as illusory is understanding life.
Andreas: If we contemplate our own individual sentiency, our own experience, that we have at this very moment, we connect to essence.
Response: “we“ is the ego. The ego dreams to be “connected to essence“. Essence is all there is, appearing as we. Therefore Real “connection“ is neither possible nor necessary. Separation is illusory thoughts manifested by life.
Andreas: Suffering and pain, just like enjoyment and happiness are a collateral of soul development.
Response: Soul does not develop, for it is real and real does not change. The ego believes in improvement and projects it on soul.
Andreas: When we are identified with the soul rather than with our personality,
Response: If a “we“ (ego) is identified with “soul“, the ego is lost in thoughts.
Andreas: ...we will live in a state of continuous serenity and joy, while we are suffering pain and pleasure, happiness and sadness.
Response: Again the ego dreams, for every experience of the ego is just a thought.
Andreas: The important point to consider in this is self-awareness, or LOGOS, the ability to think and speak.
Response: Man is not the speaker, thinker or doer. The ego (self) is not aware. In form of illusory thoughts, reflected by awareness, the illusion of ego arises. Understand mind as sound and the matter is over.
Andreas: Based on that we have the capacity to create unnecessary suffering for ourselves, others, and nature.
Response: It is not your fault that you suffer, Andreas! And this is true for everybody. Be free of the thought of “creating“ and you are free of the thought of “suffering“ too - if it happens. Suffering will happen to the mind, but not appear as real any more. Nothing could be done about it, neither to create nor to un-create suffering, for it is not real.
Andreas: Necessary suffering is a collateral of soul development or the mastery of energy.
Response: To believe in mastering engery leads to illusory suffering, for the ego wants to do something and therefore is lost because the ego is just a reflection of life and not the doer.
Andreas: Unnecessary suffering keeps us in bondage to the three lower worlds for no good reason, but ignorance and desperation. You are account-able.
Response: Life does not manifest “unnecessary“ except as illusory thoughts. Bondage is illuosory and not real. If man were account-able, nobody would allow suffering to happen. This is prove enough that man is not the doer!
Andreas: Soul development and mastery of energy happen as the polarity of 'Agency and Communion'. Agency: We are actors and decision makers, have will and intention, and we can think. All of these are agency. Communion: We are completely dependent on existence and life, our essence, the universe, in short: DIVINITY.
Response: Divinity or life reflects itself as man, actions, decisions, will and intentions - illusory though it is. Clear understanding of this is real trust in life or Divinity. Believing in “actors“ and “decisions“ is illusory mis-trust which is the predicament of the ego.
Andreas: Let us contemplate ‘Integration’ and ‘necessary suffering’ in terms of non-duality.
Response: Non-duality is not a method of contemplation. The ego interprets wisdom.
Andreas: There has not been one enlightened master anywhere in this world or in other worlds, who does not understand absolutely the necessary suffering and account-ability of self-awareness, and what it means.
Response: The mind (“Andreas“) has never met an enlightened master. In the meeting with a master there could not be an “I“ present. Meeting a master means to realize that the master is life as are you. The ego meets nothing but its own beliefs and deceives itself to have met a master. This is how life has meant it to be, to make the illusory world appear as real to the illusory ego.
www.evolutionofmind.org
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Marcus Stegmaier