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Taking responsibility


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melanie's picture
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From belief to clarity.

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Melanie quoting Jared (siddha

Melanie quoting Jared (siddha Budha)
…”With that being said, nothing you say matters -> it's all an illusion. Right?''

Response: Jared, Illusory surely does matter, because the illusory exists.

www.academy-advaita.com

Marcus Stegmaier

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Reply to marcus -The illusory exists

Which prompted me to make my next thread.

Paradoxical Truth.

http://nevernothere.com/forum/paradoxical-truth

From belief to clarity.

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Believing Nihilism doesn't mean you will not act responsibly

I shared this observation before in a multi-subject series of posts.  Maybe it was lost in the forest.

You have said that nasty comments could just as well come from nice people, and that we don't know a person by what they do or say.  Although I tend to say the opposite, I can't deny that there might be an exception.  The one thing I maintain is that it takes a bodily contraction to express a negative comment or to deride someone.  I claim that there is a consequence for every bodily contraction.

Maybe a person is not aware of negative contractions.  They may live in a constant sea of contraction, and that is their life.  Perhaps they have learned to be content with a good contraction, and have never learned to enjoy a calm neutrality.  An untroubled body would be classified as boring.

If contractions are fun, it's probably because using them produces a counter contraction in the "adversary."  If the recipient doesn't react, then what a waste.  Is there a difference between an emotion that contracts, which might be product of an illusion and the contraction, which your obedient body has to carry out?

You be the judge on that one.

n/a
melanie's picture
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Dear Richard

Jared attacks the person making the post. He gets personal. And that is why I have a problem with him.

I know from experience one should address topic content and never the person. I dared to challenge Jared's view points that were indifferent from my own which seemed to trigger a whole moral debate about who is right and wrong not to mention the I'm a bitter rebellious teenager drama.

I guess my anger toward him was an attempt to get him to realise the method of communication he used against me was starting to piss me off, and when I get in that mood I tend to be rather scathing and go into some kind of defence mode.That's just the way it happens with me, I'm not a perfect person. Being an awakened person doesn't mean you live a perfect stain free existence happy ever after, that's just a load of old crap invented by self righteous religious do gooders. Not my cup of tea.

Why can't people discuss topic content and stick to that alone instead of attacking the person personally, and then ridiculously claiming that they know all about people like you because they have met people like you so many times in life before. This mentality I detest so much - it's just so out-dated and immature.

(As a mum of 4 adult children - We should never hate the child only the child's behaviour) People are precious.
What people do or say is not always acceptable, or morally right, we have to take responsibility for our actions.

How about we learn to leave the messenger out of any discussion. The human ego is very fragile it's so easily hurt or offended, what we do or say to others is not only hurtful to them but to ourself as well. Aggression is animalistic instinct of fight of flight behaviour. It's natural, but can get out of hand when there is a battle for territorial minds.

Humans need to learn to get out of their own way to allow the natural flow of communication to play out without getting personally offended.

Anyone posting on a nonduality forum has to have some sort of nondual understanding to even dare to discuss it in the first place. It's not like they are here just for the fun of it to see what reactions they can provoke out of other posters, surely one has the maturity to recognise another nondual realised person?
And if not, then have the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff.

My belief is that no one knows anything about the reality they are in. No one can say with any degree of certainty how reality works or why it does and what it is. Everything they say is only theory or speculation. And so this is what we are here to talk about, if we cannot counter argue with others about their version of reality then how are we ever to reach any mutual conclusion to the nature of what it is we are trying to point to in the first place.

From belief to clarity.

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Woman for all seasons

 I see you are able to make observations from all sorts of angles.  Here you echo my sentiments exactly when you say, what we do or say to others is not only hurtful to them but to ourself as well.”

Where are the power points in your post?  (I suggest to add the words in red.)

That’s just the way it (has happened) happens with me

The human ego (could be) is very fragile it's (could be) so easily hurt or offended, 

Aggressive animalistic instinct is natural, (is habitual)

My belief is that no one knows anything (for sure) about the reality they are in. (even if the percentage of seeming verification is very high)

No one can say with any degree of certainty how reality works or why it does what it does or is what it is.  (even though it may make sense to say that we play some part in it)

Everything we say is only theory or speculation.  And so this is what we are here to talk about. 

n/a
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Richard the English Teacher

Where are the power points in your post? (I suggest to add the words in red.)

That’s just the way it (has happened) happens with me

No, it happens

The human ego (could be) is very fragile it's (could be) so easily hurt or offended,

No, it is

Aggressive animalistic instinct is natural, (is habitual)

No, it's natural

My belief is that no one knows anything (for sure) about the reality they are in. (even if the percentage of seeming verification is very high)

No, no one knows anything full stop.

No one can say with any degree of certainty how reality works or why it does what it does or is what it is. (even though it may make sense to say that we play some part in it)

No, it's playing us

From belief to clarity.

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The art of going into a conversation

And coming out completely unscathed.

5 flat NO’s proves there can be no dent in your beliefs.  Yet your  “NO” number 4 says that no one knows anything, full stop!  Then how do you get away with characterising yourself by saying I am the one who “this happens to me”?  I remind you, you don’t know anything full stop.

How do you get away with saying it can’t make any sense at all to say that “I the individual” couldn’t play some (unspecified) part in their own life, when no-one (you) knows anything full stop?  (I added Couldn’t, which is conditional, which was already conveyed by “may make sense”.)

Neither have I been scathed by this conversation.  Take this as an example.  I went to high school for four years.  Let’s say with extra week end activities that amounted to 1000 days.

One thousand times I walked to my high school.  You would say that there is no way that I could know where my high school is, full stop!  Yet 1000 times, there it was, in the same old place.  My evidence is 100%.  It is actually 1000 per-mil, much more potent than 100 per-cent.  My evidence for my knowing is solid as a rock.  Your evidence for my not knowing is hanging by a thread, no hanging by a hair, (not worth talking about).

Neither is aggressive animalistic instinct natural in a human.  One exception disproves your thesis.

Is that being an English teacher, or is that using words for what they mean? 

n/a
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Richard: ''One thousand

Richard: ''
One thousand times I walked to my high school. You would say that there is no way that I could know where my high school is, full stop! Yet 1000 times, there it was, in the same old place. My evidence is 100%. It is actually 1000 per-mil, much more potent than 100 per-cent. My evidence for my knowing is solid as a rock. Your evidence for my not knowing is hanging by a thread, no hanging by a hair, (not worth talking about).''

___________

Response: But I'm not talking about illusory man-made knowing which this apparent phantom uses as reference points in order to function sanely in the world.
I'm talking about how and why you are able to function as a phantom in the first place -No one can say with any degree of certainty how reality works or why it does what it does or is what it is. It's easy just to say God did it. But I don't buy into that belief for one very good reason.

_________

Richard: ''Neither is aggressive animalistic instinct natural in a human. One exception disproves your thesis.''

__________

Response: There is no difference between a tubeworm and a human except to say humans are a tad more sophisticated. Aggression is a natural automatic function of the senses under threat.There is not a lot you can do about ordinary functional senses, they just happen involuntary so.

__________

Richard: Is that being an English teacher, or is that using words for what they mean?

_________

Response: Words are basically meaningless. Words are open to interpretation. The reason we all adhere to the same interpretation is because we have been programmed from birth that way. You are conditioned to conform to the way your culture and society programmes you to do so without ever being encouraged to be different or think for yourself. If you are different you are cast out as a non-conformist, this is slavery, which most people enjoy, they are like good little sheep. Humans are robots, they comply and even enjoy their robotic existence because they do not know any different. The art of taking responsibility is having the courage to stand out from the crowd, to stand alone and think for yourself, to come to your own conclusions about how you want to live your own life in a peaceful and productive way, a way that serves not only yourself but others who are in close proximity to you, ie: neighbours,loved ones, friends and family...if we all do this then we are creating a strong emotional support network for ourselves which is the vital bedrock for any successful species to survive effectively.. when we are expected to think a certain way that is not what we are comfortable with, we will end up like caged rats gnawing at our frustrations of not being free to be creative in your own right.

______

Richard: ''How do you get away with saying it can’t make any sense at all to say that “I the individual” couldn’t play some (unspecified) part in their own life, when no-one (you) knows anything full stop?''

__________

Response: All you know is what has been programmed into you from others who came before you.You have no original ideas of your own, you borrow the knowledge of others, it is second hand knowledge. All knowledge is artificial intelligence. It is not the same as how reality really is. We settle for mediocre life styles because we think that's how it's meant to be. One example is being a slave to pieces of paper ..aka money.We invest our whole life in making money just to survive. This is not a wise way to live. It means those that don't have enough money live impoverished lives while others are privileged to enjoy life to the max. Most people are slaves to the worlds corporate hierarchies of elite rulers making them pots of money and leaving you in heaps of debt and physically exhausted while they live in luxury and comfort..What I have described here is the human story that we ourselves have made-up.We make up the story since no one knows how things really are, so any story will do, and any story is possibly when it is imagined.As for the source of imagination, no one knows what that is. Except those that simple say ''God did it''. The people that say ''God did it'' are weak minded, and use God as an emotional crutch because reality as it really is - is just too shocking for them to face.

________

Richard:''Yet your “NO” number 4 says that no one knows anything, full stop! Then how do you get away with characterising yourself by saying I am the one who “this happens to me”? I remind you, you don’t know anything full stop.''

_________

Response: Things happen, but not to me. Now this may sound half baked, so we add a reference point ''me''The one adding the reference point does not exist, it's a phantom.

From belief to clarity.

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Please know that I am not “Trying to Change You”

It could happen that you take up a broader viewpoint, but that is not the goal.  

I will probably never take up a narrower viewpoint.  (One thread now active is something about you never can go back to your old mental cage.)  I engage you because of the opportunity to express and clarify my own thoughts, principally for me, and for any others that might get the gist.

At one point you said that We make up a story since no one knows how things really are, so any story will do.”  That is clearly not the case, since your story does not do anything for me, and my story is not of much of interest for you.  These different stories do not dissolve the principal reason for creating expinations, for the opposite parties. 

I say that the reason for creating any explanation is a stressful feeling.  Your stories don’t soften my feelings, but would harden them.  Without such a stressful feeling you don’t notice any particular thing, and you land on the next bummer.  If you find yourself explaining pleasing feelings, you are not holding onto them, unless they become one more avoidance strategy to blank out the other kind of feelings.

I say that the feeling is created by a believed in inadequacy in living in one of the 3 contexts of life that I sometimes talk about, the individual, the world, and the space of possibility.  What I am calling an inadequacy could be not-being able to do a job, not being able to heal from an illness, not being able to avoid an annoying person, or avoid the annoying feeling, or even being in the wrong place at the wrong time to be in an accident.   I don’t know these things for any kind of fact.  I merely formulate them so that I have some framework to demonstrate if they have a reasonable effectiveness for living life.  So far the have been very effective in my life, and in my observation of other’s lives.  Clearly there is a way to block them, so they are not working for everybody.

Let me characterise many of your stories to be closed in the end, like entering an alley with no outlet.  If I am wrong about that, please correct me.  Let me characterise most of my stories to have some light at the end of the tunnel.  Let’s remind each other that neither of us know if our stories are true, or we even believe that our stories are not really true.

My false stories give me an insight into an effective (maybe false) path of action, and I am able to move through life, sometimes slowly sometimes quickly.  Your false stories allow only limited action but they give you the explanation that your perceived inadequacies are built into the system, hence not of your doing. (Even further, there is no you.)   Both our stories serve to dampen our own feeling that created the urge to explain.  Mine through success or moving through the feeling, yours through your adopted knowledge that any personal choice is impossible anyway.  

There is no way to know what is ultimately  “the truth”.  My falsity facilitates my manoeuvres. Your falsity paints you into a corner.  You have learned to explain that you like that corner.  I have learned to explain that I like to move through the corner, and realise ultimately that it wasn’t a corner after all.

For instance:

§ You declared nobody knows, full stop. . . .  Then you rejected my 1000 times example, saying not that kind of knowing.  Therefore it isn’t Full Stop that your speaking about.  How can such an arbitrary use of words create anything but misunderstanding and conflict?

§ You say you are talking about how and why you are able to function as a phantom.  By the way, I don’t function as a phantom.  Phantom is a conner that you are closing in around yourself.  I function as a normal human being.  Is that too much to digest?

No one can say with any degree of certainty how reality works or why it does what it does or is what it is.   I agree.  So how does that make me a phantom, if I don’t choose to story myself that way?  Isn’t it just another of your corners, such as, “all those around me think they are  functioning as normal human beings when I know that they are functioning as phantoms.”  It is a pressure on you, It’s not any pressure on me.

§ (Nobody I know says God did it.)

§ Aggression (Protection) is a natural automatic function of the senses under threat.  The mechanisms of protection are fight, flight and freeze.  It can be seen that only 1/3 of those are aggressive.

§ Words are meaningless sounds that we are brainwashed into certain interpretations since birth.  No, we have learned to agree on a symbolic language to better manipulate our intentions of how to live within a planetary ecosystem.  It is a live-language, open to change and modification for those who are willing to participate, and be a part of an evolving human manifestation.  Your own culture is your starting point in that exploration.  How would you be able to “stand alone and think for yourself” if you had only your private language that nobody else understands?

§ Nobody is a slave to a piece of paper.  That paper is another language, which means “I participated in half of a transaction” which left me with this receipt.  Now I wish to complete that transaction, by asking you to accept this receipt, for your services which I wish to employ.

§ You speak of the world power structures which serve some well and oppress others.  I will be talking about that on another thread, so I won’t take it up here.

I hear your plea for “creating a strong emotional support network.”  Here you are most likely speaking your truth.  I hope that you find a way to manifest it in your life.  I believe that this forum could a starting point in finding whatever you want.

n/a
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Richard

You say...''At one point you said that “We make up a story since no one knows how things really are, so any story will do.” That is clearly not the case, since your story does not do anything for me, and my story is not of much of interest for you. These different stories do not dissolve the principal reason for creating expinations, for the opposite parties.''

_____

Response: I'm not really sure what you mean here Richard.

I said we as the mind make up our stories, so by saying any story will do is pointing to the unique perspective of each individual story unfolding according to the unique experiencing of the mind. I can never meet your story and make it mine, because I have my own story according to my own unique life experiences. No two minds can ever meet up. There is only one mind playing all the roles in every story appearance. No one knows what the mind actually is only the story it weaves from the unique perspective of the story. That's what I meant by no one knows anything, to know something would be the same as a dream character in a nightly dream knowing it's only existence is a temporal appearance in a dream.A dream character cannot know anything, because the dream is all there is.

From belief to clarity.

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Richard

You say...''
I hear your plea for “creating a strong emotional support network.” Here you are most likely speaking your truth. I hope that you find a way to manifest it in your life. I believe that this forum could a starting point in finding whatever you want.''

________

Response: In the dream story, there is a desire for a happy compassionate harmonious existence backed up by a strong emotional support network. This idea creates a happy illusion, that's the goal of this dream to create the best dream possible.

In truth reality is not interested in happiness, harmony, or compassion. If it was interested you wouldn't have earthquakes, tsunami's, volcano eruptions, hurricanes, tornado's, etc.. all this phenomena wiping out vast numbers of living creatures on earth without a care.

Humans who know life as illusion, which is the only thing that can be known directly do not need support networks in their life. Once they become aware of their illusory nature they disappear from the world stage and have no thoughts of happiness or compassion except within the context of the story. They do not need others for they know that every other person animal, plant, bird, or any other thing is just an extension of who they appear to be so they always feel totally complete in that context.

From belief to clarity.

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Richard

You say....''Nobody is a slave to a piece of paper. That paper is another language, which means “I participated in half of a transaction” which left me with this receipt. Now I wish to complete that transaction, by asking you to accept this receipt, for your services which I wish to employ.''

__________

Response: Only slaves live for money. People enjoy being slaves because they get paid to be a slave. They don't even know they are being a slave, all they see is the pleasure and promises that money can bring until they realise the pleasures and promises were empty at the core. All their exertions had been in vain. You have no other option other than to be a slave. We are beggars in our own kingdom. Except for the one eyed man who is king.

From belief to clarity.

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Richard

You say..'' So how does that make me a phantom, if I don’t choose to story myself that way? ''

__________

Response: Exactly, you can believe what ever you want to believe, it's your story. If you want to believe you are not a story, that too is your story.

From belief to clarity.

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Richard

You say...''we have learned to agree on a symbolic language''

_______

Response: All language is a form of noise which rises from and falls back into silence making language illusory. We agree on it in order to make sense of the world in which we imagine to exist.

From belief to clarity.

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Richard

You say...''Aggression (Protection) is a natural automatic function of the senses under threat. The mechanisms of protection are fight, flight and freeze. It can be seen that only 1/3 of those are aggressive.''

___________

Response: The sense of fight, flight, or freeze - occurs when aggression is present. One either fights the aggression, flees from it, or freezes at it. Aggression is a sense too. The sense of smell arises in the scent, the sense of hearing arises in the noise. They are a mutually arising inseparable phenomena.

From belief to clarity.

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I think that you have said it all

Thanks for your continuing clear expression of the concepts that work for your life.

Let's Discover
Richard Miller

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Dear Richard

It was never my intention to be conflictive - people are precious because I'm precious. I was devising myself an experiment when I decided to engage in conversation with you. I see now by my responses that I have lost the ability to converse with people on a worldly level. In fact I have no idea or understanding of what you are trying to communicate, although I did attempt to understand.

_________

You say...''Isn’t it just another of your corners, such as, “all those around me think they are functioning as normal human beings when I know that they are functioning as phantoms.” It is a pressure on you, It’s not any pressure on me.''

________

Response: Yes, I can only function as a phantom, have been doing it all my life, and is why I cannot communicate worldly issues. How can a phantom ever take life seriously. Nonduality destroys the you that you believed to be you until that person is only living from it's ordinary automatic functional senses. That person is neither dead nor alive... this happens sometimes, not to me, but just what is happening. I knew it would be a mistake to attempt to engage in conversation with a person who believes he is not a phantom.

I'm not in a corner Richard. I'm home, where the fires are eternally burning. It's nice here.

Anyway, thanks for engaging in conversation with me for awhile, sorry I wasn't able to communicate worldly stuff with you in the manner you are familiar with. I was only reporting my surround from the perspective of how I was experiencing it. I cannot be more honest than that.
I couldn't find the energy to get to know other people and their individual worlds, I wasn't interested in what was going on in the world, because well, it wasn't my world. I needed to reserve my energy into the search for my own being... the search for myself. I needed to awaken...

I'll leave you with this poem to ponder.

I searched for my Self

until I grew weary,

but no one, I know now,

reaches the hidden knowledge

by means of effort.

Then, absorbed in “Thou art This,”

I found the place of Wine.

There all the jars are filled,

but no one is left to drink.

Lalla

From belief to clarity.

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I searched

 

I searched for my Self

acknowledgement of self, world and whole

until I grew weary,

acknowledgement of world pain

but no one, I know now,

Acknowledgement of community

reaches the hidden knowledge

Acknowledgement of desire to escape

by means of effort.

Acknowledgement of frustration

Then, absorbed in “Thou art This,”

Acknowledgment of disengagement

I found the place of Wine.

Acknowledgment of discovery

There all the jars are filled,

Acknowledgment life could be good

but no one is left to drink.

Acknowledgement that I, still cannot partake

Lalla

Acknowledgment that I don’t need to care about it.

 

 

How can a phantom ever take life seriously?

n/a
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How can a phantom ever take life seriously?

From belief to clarity.

Part of the Action

We remain committed to be on the forefront of what will support life, both in your family and on planet earth. 

 

My interaction with you is an Experiment to further enable this vision to be true, and up to the rhythm that you are a part of the action.  

 

Please contribute to make this vision real.  

With Heart Felt Thanks, Richard Miller.

  

 

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